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What HK417 in the UK?

 

Simon

 

I was mistaken by looking at pictures of supposedly SAS troops with HK417's that the new L129 sharpshooter rifle is a HK417 version. In fact it is a version of the LM308 - another AR10 offspring. Sorry for that misunderstanding! However, it doesn't matter with respect to my reasoning stated above.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I was expecting something a little miore exotic looking from HK. Any word on it's operating system or any other info?

 

It may just be an unveiled prototype.

 

Would be better if they made a derivative of the AA-52 or somthing that uses a Lever-Delayed Blowback operation.

Edited by Cutaway
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  • 1 month later...

By the way, the Germans are now adopting the HK417 to the Bundeswehr as G27, in something similiar role to the DMR in the USA.

 

Turns out the HK 417 has been introduced as the G 27 "General Purpose Assault Rifle" (there's a contradiction in terms if I've ever seen one) with the KSK already. The new DMR, currently designated DMR762, will apparently be the 417's civilian semi-auto brother, the HK Match Rifle 308, firing a new "7.62 x 51 mm DMR" round with a Schmidt & Bender 3-20 x 50 mm scope on top (can use standard ammo too, obviously, but objective is 1.5 MOA accuracy out to 600 meters). Stop-gap is the G 3 A3 ZF-DMR with semi-only lower, Schmidt & Bender 3-12 x 50 mm PM II and ventral picatinny rail for Harris bipod etc., replacing the plethora of field-modified G 3 ZFs.

 

I see Jan-Phillipp Weisswange referred to our Tony Williams in his article on infantry weapons in the current issue of Strategie & Technik detailing the above. :)

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For vehicle based purposes, a future GPMG will probably have to just take up less space, be dead reliable, and be able to sustain heavy firing. My guess is that future vehicle based MGs will be chain guns....

 

For infantry carried, I would guess that a reduction in recoil, weight, and bulk is really all that's needed. The first two are at odds with each other though.

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There is also new 12,7 mm (.50 BMG) externally driven machine gun with exactly the same dimensions as the old M2 Browning from Rheinmetall called RMG.50 developed in the old Mauser, now Rheinmetall Defence factory in Oberndorf. It can replace the M2HB in any application including the HMG role on the tripod (12-V battery needed). Weight about 25 kg, link and linkless (an option) fed, firing from close (sniper mode) and open bolt, fed also special P+ ammo, which makes the range of the 12,7 mm x 99 bullet similar to the Russian 14,5 mm.

 

Just had a presentation by Rheinmetall about this. Their main objective is integration into RCWSs with remote control for all operations (co-axial employment in AFVs also considered), secondary is helicopter doorguns, only tertiary infantry use, hence going with external drive, encapsulated receiver, anti-corrosion nano-coating, etc.

 

The requirements include <1.2 mrad accuracy in single fire and <2.0 mrad in burst at 100 meters, which they claim was reached with the first prototype using an M2-length barrel off the bat. The longer (55"?) barrel with chromed bore is supposed to be standard in production, which they hope to start in late 2013.

 

However, a lot is not yet finalized, including muzzle break/flash hider, external feed systems, tripod with batteries, and backup operation mode. Neither is design of the enhanced power ammunition supposed to come near (but not quite reach) 14.5 mm performance. They're really ambitious about competing with the M2 though.

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  • 9 months later...

Turns out the HK 417 has been introduced as the G 27 "General Purpose Assault Rifle" (there's a contradiction in terms if I've ever seen one) with the KSK already. The new DMR, currently designated DMR762, will apparently be the 417's civilian semi-auto brother, the HK Match Rifle 308, firing a new "7.62 x 51 mm DMR" round with a Schmidt & Bender 3-20 x 50 56 mm scope with backup Aimpoint Micro T1 on top (can use standard ammo too, obviously, but objective is 1.5 MOA accuracy out to 600 meters).

 

The military variant of the HK MR 308 has now been designated the G 28.

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The military variant of the HK MR 308 has now been designated the G 28.

 

Pic:

 

 

http://strategie-technik.blogspot.com/2011/09/neues-zf-selbstladegewehr-g28-fur-die.html

 

Overall length: 980mm

Weight: 7,9kg

Barrel length: 420mm, hard chromed

Scope: Schmidt & Bender 3-20x56 plus Aimpoint Micro T1

Special 7.62x51mm DMR ammunition, accuracy at least 1.5 MOA

 

According to the article, Heckler & Koch also offers a conversion kit to turn the rifle into a shorter, lighter patrol variant.

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Pic:

 

 

http://strategie-technik.blogspot.com/2011/09/neues-zf-selbstladegewehr-g28-fur-die.html

 

Overall length: 980mm

Weight: 7,9kg

Barrel length: 420mm, hard chromed

Scope: Schmidt & Bender 3-20x56 plus Aimpoint Micro T1

Special 7.62x51mm DMR ammunition, accuracy at least 1.5 MOA

 

According to the article, Heckler & Koch also offers a conversion kit to turn the rifle into a shorter, lighter patrol variant.

 

Jebus, that´s a lot of weight for utterly unimpressive accuracy.

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The 1.5 MOA accuracy is probably with bog standard ammunition, I guess.

 

You can get that from better Dragunovs or from Yugo M76 with much less weight.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Frankly I wonder why nobody has come up with a working solution for this before.

 

Predator-Inspired Ammo Backpack Cobbled Together By Soldiers In Afghanistan

 

Devin Coldewey

 

A group of Iowa National Guardsmen, fresh from a harrowing two-and-a-half-hour firefight in Afghanistan earlier this year, found itself questioning the effectiveness of some of their new equipment. They had been issued M240B light machine guns for support fire, but they found themselves constantly reloading with new 50-round belts, which necessitated a ammo bearer with a bunch of belts at the ready. “The ammunition sacks that came with it made it too cumbersome and heavy to carry over long, dismounted patrols and especially when climbing mountains. Initially, we came up with using 50-round belts and just reloading constantly, which led to lulls of fire and inefficiency,” said Staff Sgt Vincent Winkoski.

 

While discussing the shortcomings of their setup (as you might do if your lives depended on it), someone mentioned the movie Predator, in which Jesse Ventura’s character had an ammo box for his minigun strapped to his back. They laughed about it, but Winkowski got to thinking, and with a can-do attitude that becomes of a soldier, decided to put something like it together.

 

He took some modular gear they had lying around (a carrying frame, all-purpose pouch), combined it with some parts from a remote weapons station, and with a little tinkering and glue, he had himself a working ammo backpack.

 

They tested it on the range, and it worked. And when their squad was ambushed in a valley by a group of enemy fighters, it proved it was more than just an experiment. Winkowski sent pictures and a description to science advisers in the Army’s research division. They loved it.

 

Within 48 days, they had redeployed a new, lighter, stronger prototype into the theater. “We were able to put everything together very quickly and were able to prove that with a combat load — that’s 43 pounds with 500 rounds, inclusive of the weight of the kit itself — that still gives the Soldier 17 pounds worth of cargo weight to attach to the frame and still be within the design specifications for the MOLLE medium,” said Dave Roy, who received the design and oversaw the prototyping.

 

[...]

 

 

 

http://techcrunch.com/2011/10/17/predator-inspired-ammo-backpack-cobbled-together-by-soldiers-in-afghanistan/

Edited by BansheeOne
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Frankly I wonder why nobody has come up with a working solution for this before?

Mebbe because it isn't really necessary? :) The bit complaining about "using 50-round belts and just reloading constantly, which led to lulls of fire and inefficiency" smacks of poor drills and inflexibility to me, and the bit about said 50 round belts necessitating "a ammo bearer with a bunch of belts at the ready" suggests they haven't realised that the GPMG is in fact a crew served weapon... :unsure:

 

BillB

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If the guns are employed conventionally in sections, it wouldn't be necessary. BUT if the gun is employed with a small patrol, as has become somewhat common in Afganistan, such ammo carriage can be useful, especially in a counter-ambush situation--there was video of a British patrol using an L7, where the load of 7.62 link seemed minimal.

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If the guns are employed conventionally in sections, it wouldn't be necessary. BUT if the gun is employed with a small patrol, as has become somewhat common in Afganistan, such ammo carriage can be useful, especially in a counter-ambush situation--there was video of a British patrol using an L7, where the load of 7.62 link seemed minimal.

I was only a part-time Cold Warrior, but we used to deploy a GPMG with every rifle section of 8-9 men, which I'd say equates to a "small-patrol" in effect. The Gunner carried a 50-round belt on the gun and ammo pouches full of link with more draped across the top of the kidney pouches for quick access, the No.2 carrried more link and loose rounds to link belts together, and the riflemen all carried at least one 50-round belt apiece. We also used to train very hard to avoid getting caught with no belt in the gun, and a decent No.2 could attach another belt to the one on the gun while it was being fired.

 

BillB

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I was only a part-time Cold Warrior, but we used to deploy a GPMG with every rifle section of 8-9 men, which I'd say equates to a "small-patrol" in effect. The Gunner carried a 50-round belt on the gun and ammo pouches full of link with more draped across the top of the kidney pouches for quick access, the No.2 carrried more link and loose rounds to link belts together, and the riflemen all carried at least one 50-round belt apiece. We also used to train very hard to avoid getting caught with no belt in the gun, and a decent No.2 could attach another belt to the one on the gun while it was being fired.

 

BillB

 

Fair point, although I dont think this soldiers are regular "machine gunners" but standard riflemen that have been "issued" a GPMG.

 

The US Army deploy's 240s at the Platoon level in a dedicated section, but in A-stan they have been spread down to the squads, so it may very well be a training issue.

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Frankly I wonder why nobody has come up with a working solution for this before.

 

In fact it seems somebody has:

 

Stuff Like This Makes It Hard To Justify The Defense Budget

 

Yesterday, I was surprised that the Army PAO released yet another story on their Tyr Tactical MICO knockoff now dubbed the “Ironmanan” by the Army after a rebranding effort to sex it up. But, this time they make it sound like the Iowa Army National Guard developed the product instead of Natick. It was somehow missed by the main stream media last time but this time it hit big. Let’s spread the word and let everyone know that the Army spent money building something that already existed.

 

Is there some fat that needs to be cut in the defense budget? Definitely. After reading this story, I’d say we can come up with a few nominees. So let’s do that. In the comments section, tell us about Fraud Waste & Abuse. This story was originally broken by Military.Com’s KitUp! in July.

 

Source: SSD 7 July 2011

 

The Army developed he “new” High-Capacity Ammunition Carriage System in 45 days for use by troops in Operation Enduring Freedom. As soon as I saw it I raised an eyebrow. Unfortunately, it already existed in the form of the MICO from Tyr Tactical. The MICO was developed on Tyr’s own dime and debuted about a year ago. If time was of the essence, it sounds like the Army wasted 45 days to redevelop a commercial product that already existed.

 

Since we haven’t actually seen the High-Capacity Ammunition Carriage System, it might work entirely differently from the MICO. For instance the MICO uses a dedicated frame while the Government model attaches to a Down East frame. However, conceptually, they work the same way. Granted, it’s been done before to varying degrees of success, but something had to inspire the idea. We have been at war for nine years and no one asked for this until now? Was there at the very least some outside inspiration? Take a look at both versions and you be the judge.

 

[...]

 

 

 

http://soldiersystems.net/2011/10/18/stuff-like-this-makes-it-hard-to-justify-the-defense-budget/

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