Wehrmacht Tweekers

[Laser Lackey]

The Wehrmacht provided tweek for its soldiers!

 

I have been reading Robin Cross's book Citadel The Battle Of Kursk and on page 179-180 is an account from Gerd Schmuckle a Sturmgeschutz crewman. After his Stug was knocked out, he was picked up by a Panzer IV commanded a Lieutenant-Colonel Adalbert Schulz. Schulz, an immensely experienced officer whose courage and legendary luck had earned him the nickname "Panzer" Shultz, gave Schmuckle some Pervitin benzedrine pills.

 

Schmuckle wrote of the effects of Pervitin after the fighting around Zhitomir in November of 1943: I could not sleep. During the attack I had taken too much Pervitin. We had all been dependent on it for a long time. Everyone swallowed the stuff, more frequently and in greater doses. The pills seemed to remove the sense of agitation. I slid into a world of bright indifference. Danger lost its edge. One's own power seemed to increase. After the battle one hovered in a strange stage of intoxication in which a deep need for sleep fought with a clear alertness.

 

Here is an interesting site with some info on Pervitin and the Wehrmacht.

http://www.amphetamines.com/nazi.html

 

So, was it Blitzkrieg or more like Spunkrieg!!!

[Marek Tucan]

Nothing new. And then Germans call Pervitin often "Bohemian drug"

[cbo]

What about drug use in other armies? I recall an interview with a US former officer on Eisenhowers staff talking about the fighting in the Ardennes. Soldiers with "shell shock" were given a couple of pills which knocked them out for 24 hours after which they were send back to the front, still doped and dazed. IIRC he was rather emotional about it, doubting that they would've made it very far if involved in combat.

 

cbo

[George Newbill]

The USAF has recently been FORCING it's pilots to take "go" pills for long flights. When the inevitable happened and the pilot killed the wrong people on the ground, guess what the defence was? "I was stoned." If the pilot refuses, he gets grounded. No win situation. Drugs are bad, okay?

[pdoktar]

In WW2, finnish long-range patrol and guerrilla troops (kaukopartio) used pervitin and there are stories of serious addictedness long after the war leading to serious problems to rehabilitate back to civil society and normal life.

 

Drugs are bad, whether used in war or not, however sometimes there might be no choice but to take them.

[DB]

The USAF has recently been FORCING it's pilots to take "go" pills for long flights. When the inevitable happened and the pilot killed the wrong people on the ground, guess what the defence was? "I was stoned." If the pilot refuses, he gets grounded. No win situation. Drugs are bad, okay?

I say, George - that sounds terrible. Could you provide a news article I could read to get more details? I know about the use of ampthetamines by airmen, but i haven't heard of their use being used as a defence for Blue-on-Blue.

 

David

[Sailor Lars]

In WW2, finnish long-range patrol and guerrilla troops (kaukopartio) used pervitin and there are stories of serious addictedness long after the war leading to serious problems to rehabilitate back to civil society and normal life.

 

Drugs are bad, whether used in war or not, however sometimes there might be no choice but to take them.

 

Guns don't shoot people, people do? It's the same thing for drugs. I doubt any severely wounded soldier had anything against a dose of morphine. Amphetamines had their own reasons for uses as well, just the same. However, especially considering the WW2-era soldiers probably didn't know what they were taking to keep on fighting and alert, even less knowledge about the bad sides - until it all became too empiric.

 

On a personal note, the addiction/withdrawal symptoms phobia is at least here in Finland still a big boogeyman at least on the healthcare side - And to confirm about the problems of returning to civil life from war, the drugs sure did have their impact, for example that Helsinki gentleman, self-titled Finland's eldest opiate addict - whom's route to addiction ( the bad type of, this time ), started if i recall right, when he got wounded.

 

then again.. Everything's allowed in love and ( total ) war. Did i forget something? Grandfather was a medic - died when i was too young to talk about war, so i know only what father told me. Stepfather's father was a long range patrol man - I was old enough, but he was very traumatized after the war - Didn't speak anything, nor i did not push for it. Anxiety and utter fear of death - And other symptoms many finns have heard stories about.

 

Not to derail further from the topic - I wouldn't be surprised at all if stimulants would become common issue if a WWIII type total war scenario would become true. Which i hope it wouldn't.

[DesertFox]

Did the USSR use any drugs heavily, other than Vodka?

[Marek Tucan]

Did the USSR use any drugs heavily, other than Vodka?

When you have plentiful enough supply of vodka, you need no other drugs! Except maybe pure technical ethanol

[Sardaukar]

I say, George - that sounds terrible. Could you provide a news article I could read to get more details? I know about the use of ampthetamines by airmen, but i haven't heard of their use being used as a defence for Blue-on-Blue.

 

David

 

I think he means this episode (bolded part bolded by me):

 

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/01/...2520778665.html

 

Air force rushes to defend amphetamine use

 

January 18 2003

 

As two pilots face a possible court-martial, the air force says "go pills" kept tired pilots alive in Afghanistan. Lianne Hart reports from New Orleans.

 

As a hearing investigating two American fliers who bombed Canadian forces in Afghanistan entered a third day on Thursday, the air force summoned reporters to hear a pilot-surgeon extol the virtues of the practice of prescribing amphetamines for tired pilots.

 

"It is the gold standard for anti-fatigue," Colonel Peter Demitry, chief of the US Air Force surgeon-general's science and technology division, said outside the military warehouse where the hearing is being held. "We know that fatigue in aviation kills . . . This is a life-and-death insurance policy that saves lives."

 

Lawyers for Major Harry Schmidt and Major William Umbach have said the pilots' judgment was impaired by amphetamines routinely prescribed by air force doctors. The two men, formerly full-time air force pilots who now are Illinois National Guardsmen, may be court-martialled for dropping a bomb that killed four Canadian soldiers and injured eight near Kandahar, Afghanistan, in April.

 

The pilots say they believed they were under fire. But the air force says they failed to wait for clearance to fire. Seconds after the bomb was dropped, clearance was denied.

 

One side effect of amphetamine is that it makes paranoid. Might be good behind enemy lines, but not so good when flying around friendly forces...

 

And (bolded part bolded by me):

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2002/020801-speed.htm

 

 

Toronto Star August 1, 2002

U.S. pilots stay up taking 'uppers'

 

William Walker

 

Related Resource

PERFORMANCE MAINTENANCE During Continuous Flight Operations A GUIDE FOR FLIGHT SURGEONS - NAVMED P-6410 - 1 JAN 2000 -- Intermittently since Vietnam up through Desert Storm the Air Force has used both amphetamines and sedatives in selected aircraft for specific missions. USAF pilots during Desert Storm stated that 5 mgs of dextro-amphetamine (Dexedrine) helped maintain alertness without causing other changes in mood or perception.

WASHINGTON - U.S. jet fighter pilots, responsible for at least 10 deadly "friendly fire" accidents in the Afghanistan war, have regularly been given amphetamines to fly longer hours.

 

Then when they return to base, the pilots are given sedatives by air force doctors to help them sleep, before beginning the whole cycle again on the next mission, often less than 12 hours later.

 

The exact drugs pilots are given and how they're taken is outlined in a 24-page document obtained by The Star, produced by the Top Gun fighter training school and the Naval Aerospace Medical Research Laboratory in Pensacola, Fla.

 

A spokesperson for the U.S. Air Force Surgeon-General's Office in Washington confirmed pilots are given the stimulant Dexedrine, generically known as dextroamphetamine, to stay alert during combat missions in Afghanistan.

 

Pilots refer to Dexedrine as "go-pills." The sleeping pills they are given, called Ambien (zolpidem) and Restoril (temazepam), are referred to as "no-go pills."

 

"When fatigue could be expected to degrade air crew performance, they are given Dexedrine in 10 mg doses," air force spokeswoman Betty-Anne Mauger told The Star.

 

It is not known whether Dexedrine was involved in the friendly fire incident in which an American fighter jet dropped a 500-pound laser-guided bomb that killed four Canadian soldiers early on April 18. But the possibility did come to the mind of one defence analyst.

 

"Better bombing through chemistry," remarked John Pike, director of Globalsecurity.org, a Washington-area defence policy think-tank.

 

"This was certainly one of my first thoughts after the Canadian friendly fire accident," he said in an interview. "The initial depiction made it seem as if the pilot was behaving in an unusually aggressive fashion."

 

Illinois Air National Guard Maj. Harry Schmidt was piloting the F-16 supersonic fighter that dropped the bomb. Maj. William Umbach was flying with him in another F-16 that night.

 

"I don't know the answer," Schmidt's lawyer, Charles Gittins, responded last night about whether Dexedrine was involved. "I never asked my pilot if he was medicated. But it's quite common. He's on vacation now, so I'll check with him about it when he gets back."

 

Pike said there's little controversy among politicians or the American public about the use of amphetamines by the air force because "I don't think anybody even knows about it.

 

"The aviation community and the air force community certainly don't like to talk about so-called `performance enhancing' drugs," he said.

 

There have been reports that Schmidt and his fellow pilots - originally deployed to patrol the U.S.-enforced no-fly zone over southern Iraq from an American base in Kuwait - had complained of fatigue since they were also ordered to fly combat missions over Afghanistan. Gittins said he was not aware of such complaints.

 

Schmidt and his fellow pilots had to fly for three hours to arrive at the combat zone. An F-16 mission to Afghanistan from Kuwait routinely takes nine hours including three hours over the target area plus the trip back. Pilots also attend pre-flight briefings and debriefings after they return.

 

Mauger said Dexedrine is commonly used by pilots on missions of more than eight hours' duration, or when pilots get less than the recommended 12 hours' rest between missions, as was the case for the pilots on double duty from the Kuwait air base.

 

The 24-page Top Gun document, entitled Performance Maintenance During Continuous Flight Operations, reports that in an anonymous survey among pilots who flew in Desert Storm, the 1991 Persian Gulf War, 60 per cent said they used Dexedrine. In units that saw the most frequent combat missions, usage was as high as 96 per cent.

Edited December 3, 2007 by Sardaukar

[Laser Lackey]

A friend of mine is a Harrier pilot and did a couple of tours in the sandbox. I'll have to ask him if he has ever been offered "Go Pills".

[DesertFox]

When you have plentiful enough supply of vodka, you need no other drugs! Except maybe pure technical ethanol

 

Love to know just how much Vodka the Russian Army consumed during World War II (And of course how much that breaks down for each man)

Edited December 4, 2007 by DesertFox

[Marek Tucan]

Love to know just how much Vodka the Russian Army consumed during World War II (And of course how much that breaks down for each man)

I'd guess such a statistic is impossible to obtain, given that vast amount of it had to be the "samohonka", hom-brewn vodka...

[CV9030FIN]

I'd guess such a statistic is impossible to obtain, given that vast amount of it had to be the "samohonka", hom-brewn vodka...

 

AFAIK in 1941 Russian regulations said that all solders were entitled to have 100 grams of vodka per day as a part of daily ration.

[DesertFox]

AFAIK in 1941 Russian regulations said that all solders were entitled to have 100 grams of vodka per day as a part of daily ration.

 

Wonder why their did it by weight instead of volume.....

[Sardaukar]

Wonder why their did it by weight instead of volume.....

 

Have intrigued me too... Even in some Soviet era restaurants one ordered vodka in grams... Rarely tho..since usually it was ordered as whole bottles. But still...for example, 50g was usual "shot"

[A2Keltainen]

Wonder why their did it by weight instead of volume.....

 

My guess is that all the other rations were specified by weight, and if so, I also guess they thought it would be practical/nifty/etc. to also specify the alcohol by weight.

[Sailor Lars]

afaik, russians measure monuments, statues etc as well by their mass, not by their other dimensions. Feel free to correct if needed!

[Christian Lupine]

During the investigation of the Illinois National Guard pilot incident one commentator noted the danger in giving speed to a person already trained for aggression (fighter pilot) who has probably little experience with drugs, and then expecting them to follow strict rules of engagement in a confusing environment. ISTR that one of the pilots was one of the top fighter pilots instructors before the incident.

[Assessor]

This is about a balance of risks, or if you prefer, a cost-benefit analysis. How many more people will be killed by there not being air support, compared to those who might get killed as a result of accidents caused by drugs affecting the pilots?

 

These are (both the “uppers” and the “downers”) mind-altering drugs. Although the behaviour and effects of these particular drugs are pretty well understood, every single person who takes them may react adversely or unpredictably. Even if you are confident that everything if fine in 99% or 99.9% of cases, there can still be 1% or 0.1% where something unexpected happens. This is without thinking about what cycling between amphetamines and benzodiazepines will do to circadian rhythms etc.

 

Unfortunately, the circumstances under which these adverse reactions might happen mean that things might not “fail safe”.

 

However, doing nothing is not an option either. The benefit of not having the pilots in question affected by drugs has to be balanced against the cost of them being slow and drowsy, or against there being no planes in the air at all.

 

It’s a nasty, dangerous business, and in some cases, there isn’t a right answer, just a “least wrong” answer.

[BillB]

Desert fox et al, ref the Sovs measuring things by weight, it may be to do with the way they constructed the indicators for their command economy. ISTR reading somewhere that the Sovs produced the heaviest chandeliers and couches in the world because output was measured by weight, and and thus the easiest way of meeting or exceeding Party quotas was to make everything as heavy as possible...

 

BillB

[DesertFox]

Desert fox et al, ref the Sovs measuring things by weight, it may be to do with the way they constructed the indicators for their command economy. ISTR reading somewhere that the Sovs produced the heaviest chandeliers and couches in the world because output was measured by weight, and and thus the easiest way of meeting or exceeding Party quotas was to make everything as heavy as possible...

 

I am seeing visions of a sofa with lead weights inside it

[Latausnuija]

I am seeing visions of a sofa with lead weights inside it

 

I remember reading about a finnish company selling ship engines to soviet union and deliberately constructing the engines heavier than the engines sold to the western market. The soviet purchasers were quite happy about the heavier models, since they always calculated the price per kg of any stuff they were offered...

[DesertFox]

I remember reading about a finnish company selling ship engines to soviet union and deliberately constructing the engines heavier than the engines sold to the western market. The soviet purchasers were quite happy about the heavier models, since they always calculated the price per kg of any stuff they were offered...

 

Must have been an interesting situation with aircraft engines......