USS Kitty Hawk turned away from Hong Kong

[dpapp2]

I haven't seen any pic with more than 12 Rafales on PA2. The CVF would have a maximum of 51 planes crammed on it, but only space for 4-5 helicopters. That is, if you want to stove 4 planes on the elevators. Take them out, you are down to 47. And E-2Ds takes up a bit more space, say that pf 5 Rafales, and you are down to 42.

 

 

http://navy-matters.beedall.com/cvf1-24.htm

Edited December 11, 2007 by dpapp2

[Cookie Monster]

Then how the hell did America and her class counterparts and KH which is comparable to CVF get 90 planes?

[TSJ]

Then how the hell did America and her class counterparts and KH which is comparable to CVF get 90 planes?

 

Because we're shmaart.

 

And uh, US Navy planes wings fold back.

Edited December 12, 2007 by TSJ

[Garth]

It's not that worn out. The US Navy doesn't let ships deteriorate that much while it is on active duty status.

 

I think you'd be surprised. It isn't much of a secret that the US CV force (versus the CVN force) has been consistantly getting the short end of the stick for at least a decade now.

 

America was so thoroughly messed up that the Navy wouldn't even consider her for donation status and chose to haul her out into the Atlantic and sink her. JFK's problems were almost legend - first she has a skipper relieved due to the ship's abmysmal material condition prior to a deployment (the "Big John Burped" incident), and then she spends the last two years of her commission tied up at Mayport because her flight deck can't be certified and the Navy refuses to pay through the nose to fix it.

 

There were all sorts of rumors floating around about how bad of shape Constellation was in during her final deployment (for OIF) ... while the ones about her dragging a dead shaft across the Pacific are probably untrue, there isn't a lot of doubt that the ship was old, tired and worn out.

 

The SLEPs on Forrestal and Saratoga were considered to have been partial failures, and Kitty Hawk spends an enormous amount of time in Yokosuka under the TLC of the phenominal dockyard workers there.

 

OTOH Midway was apparently in great shape when she retired. The end of "Midway Magic" details the Navy's efforts to try to break her after she returned from Japan. Independence was apparently in pretty good shape as well (thanks again to her time as the forward-deployed carrier)

 

--Garth

[philgollin]

I cannot speak about the PA2, but for the CVFs (the Queen Elizabeths) the "official" aircraft complement is set by two main criteria ;

 

1: The official complement is that number of aircraft which can be properly stowed below in the hangar - i.e. it does not include a deck park.

 

2: Likewise, the hangar capacity is not set by the maximum number that can jammed in but by the number of "maintenace bays" which are specifically designed such that the aircraft can be easily and efficiently worked on without restrictions imposed by surrounding aircraft. There is also an indication that the space allowance includes manouvering space (again for efficiency) but no indication what that means.

 

So the CVFs could quite easily have a larger aircraft complement, but that would mean that they would mean a larger crew and whilst there is additional berthing space available (part of the CVF's "swing-role" of assault carrier and also part of their "future proofing" if they are converted to CTOL carriers) the RN would be hard-pressed for the manpower except in a full war time setting IF the second Queen Elizabeth wasn't available. The main driver for the Queen Elizabeths is efficency and low manning for the desired number of aircraft, although costs have come into it (i.e. there was going to be a highly automated armament handling system to save on personnel but this was dumped because it was too expensive).

[Cookie Monster]

Looks like the Russians are seriously considering giving the money back to India and keeping the ship Gorkshov. I think this is better for everyone. InN doesn't get saddled with a troublesome carrier and does not have to go through with the Mig-29s purchase order and basically it frees up India's ability to award the MRCA contract to non Russian competitors. If GoI increases the order from 126 to 250 planes and dump the LCA, I seriously hope that India goes for the F-35 barring that, go for the F/A -18E/F with the AESA and its latest avionics. The F-16s are named Lawn Darts for a reason. Rafaels are behind F/A-18s in terms of avionics and is not really stealthy so no big loss there. This will at least keep the IAF in the 4.5 Generation range and allow India to go to the next avaition milestone, developing a 5th Gen plane.

 

I really hope that InN contacts the Brits and ask if the Brits are willing to let India be involved in the design phase and the manufacturing and assembly phase. InN has a need for 3 carriers. If InN foregoes the ADS ship and go for CVFs, it can really boost up InN's capabilities without going bankrupt. I really hope the Brits agree because it would lower the development costs when adding more orders.

[Xavier]

Looks like the Russians are seriously considering giving the money back to India and keeping the ship Gorkshov. I think this is better for everyone. InN doesn't get saddled with a troublesome carrier and does not have to go through with the Mig-29s purchase order and basically it frees up India's ability to award the MRCA contract to non Russian competitors. If GoI increases the order from 126 to 250 planes and dump the LCA, I seriously hope that India goes for the F-35 barring that, go for the F/A -18E/F with the AESA and its latest avionics. The F-16s are named Lawn Darts for a reason. Rafaels are behind F/A-18s in terms of avionics and is not really stealthy so no big loss there. This will at least keep the IAF in the 4.5 Generation range and allow India to go to the next avaition milestone, developing a 5th Gen plane.

 

I really hope that InN contacts the Brits and ask if the Brits are willing to let India be involved in the design phase and the manufacturing and assembly phase. InN has a need for 3 carriers. If InN foregoes the ADS ship and go for CVFs, it can really boost up InN's capabilities without going bankrupt. I really hope the Brits agree because it would lower the development costs when adding more orders.

you do now that the ADS is already building and that CVF is bigger and more expensive as well, so how would scrapping a ship already being build to join in a more expensive program be paid for?

also, it's Rafale, (a strong sudden wind) not Rafael (an archangel)

[Cookie Monster]

I would not scrap the ADS being built. I would just convert it into a helicopter carrier or amphibous carrier. With the asking price for Gorkshov, we would essentially get the same price for CVF if we order in a batch of 3 to 4.

[JOE BRENNAN]

Actually about the same tonnage. As with other US ships, Kitty Hawks tonnage is usually given in US tons of 907 kg, while PA2 is in real tons - or tonnes.

US ship displacements are given in long tons, 2240#, v metric tons aka tonnes, 2204# in case of PA2/CVF, so comparing the nominal tonnages actually slightly understates the relative size of the Kitty Hawk, which is definitely the larger ship ~82k lt v ~66k mt, main difference being in length, other dimensions are closer. But current US carrier air wings are only around 65 a/c and planned to get a bit smaller when F-35's are introduced. To compare plane 'capacity' we'd have to know the maximum imposed purely by the ship (as opposed to a/c procurement or other constraint) with identical operating practice in each case.

 

Joe

[harryRIEDL]

US ship displacements are given in long tons, 2240#, v metric tons aka tonnes, 2204# in case of PA2/CVF, so comparing the nominal tonnages actually slightly understates the relative size of the Kitty Hawk, which is definitely the larger ship ~82k lt v ~66k mt, main difference being in length, other dimensions are closer. But current US carrier air wings are only around 65 a/c and planned to get a bit smaller when F-35's are introduced. To compare plane 'capacity' we'd have to know the maximum imposed purely by the ship (as opposed to a/c procurement or other constraint) with identical operating practice in each case.

 

Joe

is the CVF and PA2 in metric tons i thought the RN ship would be in imperial tons the PA2 with all the CTOL doo daas is 75k which is much closer too kitty hawks size.

ships naturally get larger SELPs refit ect all push up the tonnage so its very possible that CVF and the PA2 will be 80+tonnes.

 

these Euro carriers are coming much closer to the US efforts especially since there air wings are getting larger while the US carrier air wings are getting smaller.

[swerve]

US ship displacements are given in long tons, 2240#, ...

 

Joe

 

I stand corrected. My mistake.

[swerve]

is the CVF and PA2 in metric tons i thought the RN ship would be in imperial tons ....

 

I think the RN gave up using Imperial quite a while ago. SI all the way.