A Scandinavian "Jager" concept ?

[fanaPHIB]

Does anybody have informations about the scandinavian jagers/jeger/jager units?

I search informations about : concept, missions, TOE (company level), training of this kind of units in Finland, Sweden and Norway.

I my opinion, the danish "Jegerkorpset" is excluded because it is a professionnal unit created on the british SAS model.

[Redbeard]

Does anybody have informations about the scandinavian jagers/jeger/jager units?

I search informations about : concept, missions, TOE (company level), training of this kind of units in Finland, Sweden and Norway.

I my opinion, the danish "Jegerkorpset" is excluded because it is a professionnal unit created on the british SAS model.

 

There is a volunteer equivalent in Denmark in the Homeguard. IIRC there is a company on Zealand and in Jutland respectively, but are usually called "Patrujekompagni"(not part of Jægerkorpset, although they do co-operate a lot). Last time I heard from/about them (a couple of years ago) they had a very high standard, each serving in the region of 1000 hours each year besides their civilian jobs - I don't know how they do that. I'm not into the formal details about their mission etc., but it appears like they are primarily intended for intelligence gathering behind enemy lines.

 

Regards

 

Steffen Redbeard

[Sardaukar]

In Finland, there is lot of difference with different Jaeger units. Jaeger-name comes to FDF from 27th Imperial Prussian Jaeger Battaillon, unit formed from Finnish volunteers during WW I and fought on East Front. German Jaeger concept had deep impact of forming the FDF later and those volunteers formed the core of FDF after the end of Civil War.

 

In WW II (Winter War and especially in Continuation War 1941-44) Jaeger units were either part of the armoured formation as Jaeger Brigade as mobile "shock infantry battaillons" or they were elite units in divisions and brigades tasked for reconnaissance and counter-attack duties, usually consisting of volunteers. Also, Border/Frontier Guard units were formed as Border/Frontier Jaeger battaillons, having elite status and somewhat higher cadre of regular soldiers vs. reservists, often used as patrol/counter-partisan/recon troops in addition of light infantry duties in front.

 

Infantry battaillon often had Jaeger Platoon directly under Battaillon HQ command, infantry regiment ditto and division usually had Jaeger company. One of the famous Finns of WW II, Lauri Törni (Larry Thorne later) got his Mannerheim Cross when leading one of the divisional Jaeger companies. Not surprising, many very highly decorated soldiers came from those units.

 

Nowadays, Jaeger brigades are just motorized/mechanized infantry, better equipped than infantry units and used for both offensive and defensive purposes (infantry brigades were mostly used as defensive force). They are not even any sort of "elite" infantry anymore, that classification has transferred to readiness brigades, which are lot more heavily equipped and supposed to consist of best trained infantry.

 

Then there are units that also retain Jaeger-title, but are special purpose troops, like Coastal Jaegers, Border Jaegers and Para/Special Jaegers. Their use goes more to Special Forces area compared to conventional combat duties of ordinary Jaeger troops.

Edited November 30, 2007 by Sardaukar

[CV9030FIN]

Good post my friend, but I have to add some things...

 

In Finland, there is lot of difference with different Jaeger units. Jaeger-name comes to FDF from 27th Imperial Prussian Jaeger Battaillon, unit formed from Finnish volunteers during WW I and fought on East Front. German Jaeger concept had deep impact of forming the FDF later and those volunteers formed the core of FDF after the end of Civil War.

 

Jaegers trained in Germany had big influence on FDF until 1950, almost all of those were later trained as officers or resigned form service. During WW II over 90% of high staff was manned by former Jaegers and those who had resigned formed core of influential business leaders and high governmental officers in those hard years. All the most famous General were in fact Jaegers (with exception being of Marshal Mannerheim and Artillery General Nenonen)!

 

In WW II (Winter War and especially in Continuation War 1941-44) Jaeger units were either part of the armoured formation as Jaeger Brigade as mobile "shock infantry battaillons" or they were elite units in divisions and brigades tasked for reconnaissance and counter-attack duties, usually consisting of volunteers. Also, Border/Frontier Guard units were formed as Border/Frontier Jaeger battaillons, having elite status and somewhat higher cadre of regular soldiers vs. reservists, often used as patrol/counter-partisan/recon troops in addition of light infantry duties in front.

 

Biggest part Jaeger BN's belonged to Armor division. Because it was the only armor formation in FDF in 1943-45 it was somewhat considered to an elite unit. All the Jaeger Battalions (incl. Frontier Jaegers) had better equipment (for example more sub-machine guns, trucks instead of horses and even radios) and had best possible movement equipment at that time in FDF: bicycles. When you compare maneuverability of "leg" infantry and "bicycle" infantry, there is clear advantage towards bicycles in Finnish/Russian terrain.

 

Infantry battaillon often had Jaeger Platoon directly under Battaillon HQ command, infantry regiment ditto and division usually had Jaeger company. One of the famous Finns of WW II, Lauri Törni (Larry Thorne later) got his Mannerheim Cross when leading one of the divisional Jaeger companies. Not surprising, many very highly decorated soldiers came from those units.

 

It was in TOE to have one Jaeger Pl in BN, one Jaeger PL in RGT and one Jaeger CO in DIV. These units were used by their parent formations in recce missions, anti-partisan missions, elite counter attack unit and elite strike unit. The freedom of their duties compared to regular units (e.g. usually not line duty) and also their reputations as a "elite" unit give an advantage to these units to get the best solders. That is why very many of Army's Mannerheim Cross winners came from different Jaeger units.

 

Nowadays, Jaeger brigades are just motorized/mechanized infantry, better equipped than infantry units and used for both offensive and defensive purposes (infantry brigades were mostly used as defensive force). They are not even any sort of "elite" infantry anymore, that classification has transferred to readiness brigades, which are lot more heavily equipped and supposed to consist of best trained infantry.

 

True, but today’s elite infantry units of FDF are the readiness brigades. Similar way than during the WW II, current readiness brigades have the best equipment, younger and better (=longer trained) reservist and more demanding wartime tasks.

 

Then there are units that also retain Jaeger-title, but are special purpose troops, like Coastal Jaegers, Border Jaegers and Para/Special Jaegers. Their use goes more to Special Forces area compared to conventional combat duties of ordinary Jaeger troops.

 

Well, I wouldn't count any other unit than Para Jaegers and Special Jaegers to be Special Forces (ok, maybe new unit of Special Border Jaegers too). But you could count Coastal Jaegers and regular Border Jaegers not to be Special Forces, but "special purpose troops". BTW you forgot the Guard Jaegers from your list. I count those troops to be to special purpose troops in field of MOUT operations as much as Costal Jaegers to be in field of Amphibious operations or Border Jaegers in Guerrilla warfare. Many people in Finland usually count also Armormen and Armor Jaegers (mech infantry) special purpose units due the lack of armoured forces (when compared to size of army) and due their demanding missions.

[Sardaukar]

Well..you basicly said same with different words..

 

To quote:

 

It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

 

– Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)

 

But I'd count Border Jaegers among "SF" since their duties definitely involve guerilla operations behind enemy lines. But if that was the only denominator, also brigade recon/guerilla companies could also belong to SF. It's a difficult to distinguish between ordinary troops and SF when their tasks and training often overlap. I think it's bit same in other militaries too.

 

Ditto with Coastal Jaegers, their training and duties overlap quite a lot with Navy Combat Divers too, latter definitely being SF.

 

But it's semantics mostly, sooo...how's Afghanistan ?

Edited December 1, 2007 by Sardaukar

[CV9030FIN]

.

Edited December 1, 2007 by CV9030FIN

[Sardaukar]

I hope the Aussie PM keeps his idea and gets those Australians from Iraq to Afghanistan after New Year. I think every party (except Taleban/AQ) would be happy with that rotation

 

Well..donno how appealing A is after I to ordinary trooper..but...

[CV9030FIN]

But I'd count Border Jaegers among "SF" since their duties definitely involve guerilla operations behind enemy lines. But if that was the only denominator, also brigade recon/guerilla companies could also belong to SF. It's a difficult to distinguish between ordinary troops and SF when their tasks and training often overlap. I think it's bit same in other militaries too.

 

Ditto with Coastal Jaegers, their training and duties overlap quite a lot with Navy Combat Divers too, latter definitely being SF.

 

Well I just count Special Border Jeagers as SF. AFAIK training quite similar than one done in Utti Jaeger RGT

 

more about Special Border Jeagers (Sorry only Finnish)

 

I don't count "regular" Border Jaegers as SF and defenedly brigade recon companies are not SF. BTW there is no guerilla training any more in regular army. All former guerilla units are really training recon units only and all the guerilla training in responcebility of the Border Guards (some units in regular army though have still retained the old "Sissikomppania" name) and the Utti Jaeger RGT.

[Exel]

Jäger today is just a general term for light infantry. Jäger Brigades are light infantry brigades. With appropriate prefixes the term translates to different infantry types, like coastal jägers, armor jägers (panzerjägers, mech. infantry) or indeed the para jägers (airborne infantry). So in most cases 'jäger' is interchangeable with 'infantry'. At least in Finland, I'm not sure how the Swedes and Norwegians use the term.

 

Well, I wouldn't count any other unit than Para Jaegers and Special Jaegers to be Special Forces (ok, maybe new unit of Special Border Jaegers too).

 

Combat divers don't count? According to some their training is even tougher than that of the Paras.

[Sardaukar]

Combat divers don't count? According to some their training is even tougher than that of the Paras.

 

We were talking about Jaegers, thus Navy Combat Divers were off-topic

[Sardaukar]

Well I just count Special Border Jeagers as SF. AFAIK training quite similar than one done in Utti Jaeger RGT

 

more about Special Border Jeagers (Sorry only Finnish)

 

I don't count "regular" Border Jaegers as SF and defenedly brigade recon companies are not SF. BTW there is no guerilla training any more in regular army. All former guerilla units are really training recon units only and all the guerilla training in responcebility of the Border Guards (some units in regular army though have still retained the old "Sissikomppania" name) and the Utti Jaeger RGT.

 

Was only matter of time when Border/Frontier Guard got official SF unit.. After all, since both them and police belong under Interior Ministry, it makes official assistance requests very smooth. Kinda like German police and GSG-9 or Israeli police and Yamam..all having similar police/border guard interaction.

Edited December 1, 2007 by Sardaukar

[Exel]

Special Jägers are the only professional special forces though. Para and Special Border Jägers are conscripts. Their usability in peace time operations is questionable.

[Sardaukar]

Special Jägers are the only professional special forces though. Para and Special Border Jägers are conscripts. Their usability in peace time operations is questionable.

 

Well, Border Jägers had their own SF detachment already years ago, even before Special Jäger Detachment was formally founded. It was formed only from regulars and it was assisting police in few occasions, for example Russian conscript that came over border, shot police car etc. several years ago. Very low key, but their unit was mentioned few times in public.

 

Thus, it's not surprising they have gotten into conscript training too.

[CV9030FIN]

Well, Border Jägers had their own SF detachment already years ago, even before Special Jäger Detachment was formally founded. It was formed only from regulars and it was assisting police in few occasions, for example Russian conscript that came over border, shot police car etc. several years ago. Very low key, but their unit was mentioned few times in public.

 

Thus, it's not surprising they have gotten into conscript training too.

 

Lets keep this conversation strictly in conscrips/reservists please...you both probably can understand why.

[Yama]

Good post my friend, but I have to add some things...

Jaegers trained in Germany had big influence on FDF until 1950, almost all of those were later trained as officers or resigned form service. During WW II over 90% of high staff was manned by former Jaegers and those who had resigned formed core of influential business leaders and high governmental officers in those hard years. All the most famous General were in fact Jaegers (with exception being of Marshal Mannerheim and Artillery General Nenonen)!

 

True. Unfortunately, one reason why Jaeger officers were so prevalent was that they systematically persecuted non-Jaeger officers from the Army, because they viewed "Russian" officers as politically untrustworthy...

[A2Keltainen]

Special Jägers are the only professional special forces though.

 

Not true; the combat divers started hiring former conscripts for regular duty as sotilasammattihenkilö some time ago.

[CV9030FIN]

Not true; the combat divers started hiring former conscripts for regular duty as sotilasammattihenkilö some time ago.

 

There is no such thing called "sotilasammattihenkilö" (=Enlistee) in FDF!. All of former enlistees are Ammattialiupseereja (=Professional NCO's). And Combat Divers/Special Jaegers are Profecional NCO's. They may serve as a Contractual Military Personel (Sopimussotilas) also.

 

Edited: my thinking mistake...

Edited December 8, 2007 by CV9030FIN

[A2Keltainen]

There is no such thing called "sotilasammattihenkilö" (=Enlistee) in FDF!. All of former enlistees are Ammattialiupseereja (=Professional NCO's). But Combat Divers/Special Jaegers are neither Enlistees or Profecional NCO's: They serve as a Contractual Military Personel (Sopimussotilas)

 

Is this some recent change, because this page;

 

http://www.mil.fi/merivoimat/esikunta/henk_tehtavat.dsp

 

still mentions sotilasammattihenkilöt?

[Exel]

Not true; the combat divers started hiring former conscripts for regular duty as sotilasammattihenkilö some time ago.

 

As an independent unit or as trainers for conscripts?

[A2Keltainen]

As an independent unit or as trainers for conscripts?

 

IIRC, it was primarily for operational duties, that is, not primarily for training conscripts. Think of it as the naval complement to the army's current special jaegers (erikoisjääkärit).

 

I write "current" above, since (as you probably know) the term erikoisjääkäri was used for some years to designate conscript/reservist soldiers in the DA units that complemented the laskuvarjojääkäri populated SR units.

 

 

So to sum things up a bit, the current Nordic regular SOF units are:

 

Denmark

 

Frømandskorpset ("Frogman corps, The")

Navy DA/SR/CT unit.

http://forsvaret.dk/fkp/

http://forsvaret.dk/FVR/Eliteuddannelser/Frømand/

 

Jægerkorpset ("Jaeger corps, The")

Army DA/SR/CT unit.

http://forsvaret.dk/JGK/

http://forsvaret.dk/FVR/Eliteuddannelser/Jægersoldat/

 

Finland

 

Erikoisjääkärit ("Special jaegers")

Army DA/SR unit.

http://www.mil.fi/maavoimat/joukot/utjr/erikjaakari.dsp

http://www.mil.fi/maavoimat/joukot/utjr/erikjp.dsp

 

Taistelusukeltajat ("Combat divers")

Navy DA/SR unit. Has a reservist component.

http://www.mil.fi/merivoimat/joukot/esukel...usukeltajat.dsp

 

Norway

 

Marinejegerkommandoen (MJK, "Marine jaeger command, The")

Navy DA/SR/CT unit.

http://www.mil.no/sjo/keskdr/kyststrid/mjk...rt/marinejeger/

http://www.marinejeger.no/

 

Spesialjeger ("Special jaeger") in Haerens jegerkommando (HJK, "Army jaeger command, The")

Army DA/SR/CT unit.

http://www.mil.no/haren/hjk/start/spesialjeger/

 

HJK and MJK are part of Forsvarets spesialkommando (FSK, "Defense special command, The")

 

Sweden

 

Särskilda skyddsgruppen (SSG, "Special protection group, The")

DA/SR/close protection unit. Also meant to assist the national police AT unit Nationella insatsstyrkan if so requested, IIRC.

http://www.mil.se/article.php?id=15545

 

Särskilda inhämtningsgruppen (SIG, "Special collection group, The")

SR unit. May have reservist component.

http://www.mil.se/article.php?id=15545

 

Kontoret för särskild inhämtning (KSI, "Office for special collection, The")

Not strictly a SOF unit, but mentioned here since it's a super secret "HUMINT collection" section of Militära underrättelse- och säkerhetstjänsten (MUST, "Military intelligence and security service, The").

 

Edit:

 

There are also some "SOF like" reservist units made up of former conscripts:

 

Denmark

 

There was a army SR unit, but I have no idea what happened to it. There's also the home guard "SOF like" units mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

Finland

 

Laskuvarjojääkärit ("Parachute jaegers")

Army DA/SR unit.

http://www.mil.fi/maavoimat/joukot/utjr/lsvjaakari.dsp

http://www.mil.fi/maavoimat/joukot/utjr/erikjp.dsp

 

Taistelusukeltajat ("Combat divers")

Navy DA/SR unit. Has a regular component.

http://www.mil.fi/merivoimat/joukot/esukel...usukeltajat.dsp

 

Norway

 

Fallskjermjegerne

http://www.mil.no/haren/hjk/start/fallskjermjeger/ ("Parachute jaeger") in Haerens jegerkommando (HJK, "Army jaeger command, The")

Army SR unit.

http://www.mil.no/haren/hjk/start/spesialjeger/

 

There's also a regular "SOF like" SR unit, in addition to the conscript/reservist component, in:

 

Kystjegerkommandoen (KJK, "Coastal jaeger command, The")

http://www.mil.no/sjo/keskdr/kyststrid/kjk/start/

 

Sweden

 

Fallskärmsjägarna (FJ, "Parachute jaegers")

Army SR unit.

http://www.k3.mil.se/article.php?id=16436

http://www2.mil.se/sv/Forsvarsmakten/Organ...agarskolan-FJS/

 

Kustjägarna (KJ, "Coastal jaegers")

Navy DA/SR unit. Part of the amphibious corps. Has a reconnaissance diver component, (currently misleadingly) named Attackdykarna ("Attack divers").

http://www.amf1.mil.se/article.php?id=3918

http://www.amf1.mil.se/article.php?id=10928

Edited December 8, 2007 by A2Keltainen

[A2Keltainen]

Some Swedish jaeger naming trivia: During the beginning of the 20th century, the designation "jägare" was used for army soldiers and small units operating deep behind enemy lines in SR/DA roles. Then the navy decided they needed some elite commando like troops for counter attacks against enemy SOF, and general recce roles in the Swedish archipelago. What to name them? Well, they weren't really going to operate behind enemy lines, but they were going to operate in relatively small units (company or smaller) and they were without a doubt elite soldiers. So, despite some bitching, the name Kustjägarna ("Coastal jaegers, The") was chosen.

 

Then came the 1980's and 1990's, and suddenly everyone wanted to be really special and really elite, which in the Swedish military then meant being a "jägare". So, the Swedish military got units such as Militärpolisjägarna ("Military police jaegers, The") and the Flygbasjägarna ("Air base jaegers, The"), and there was great confusion in the kingdom about what these units, both being security units with counter-enemy-SOF missions, had to do with the designation "jägare", besides carrying it.

 

Then the K3 regiment decided that air mobile troops was the next cool thing, and something which would save it from being closed down. So they reroled their wartime jägarbataljoner ("jaeger battalions") into a single wartime air mobile battalion. Now the naming situation got real messy. What to call the soldiers in the air mobile battalion? After all, the unit isn't a jaeger unit according to the Swedish military, so could they really be called jaegers, and especially since they basically are light air mobile infantry? I don't know what the current naming status is, but the official home page doesn't seem to mention "jägare", but it shows soldiers from the air mobile battalion wearing the jaeger patch ("jägarbågen").

 

As you can imagine, this naming mess was, and still is, great fodder for endless d*ck measuring contests on Swedish military discussion fora, together with the endless question about which Swedish jeger unit is "the hardest".

 

Edit:

 

SSG, which is the current coolest kid on the Swedish jaeger/SOF block doesn't call its members "jägare". Instead they refer to them as "operatör" ("operator"), which seems to be the new cool international thing to be called. It's almost as if there's a "Keeping up with the Joneses" mentality in the game of international SOF naming.

Edited December 8, 2007 by A2Keltainen

[CV9030FIN]

Is this some recent change, because this page;

 

http://www.mil.fi/merivoimat/esikunta/henk_tehtavat.dsp

 

still mentions sotilasammattihenkilöt?

 

Yes. from the begining of 2007. BTW in your link it DOESN'T list divers to serve as a sotilasammattihenkilö...

[A2Keltainen]

BTW in your link it DOESN'T list divers to serve as a sotilasammattihenkilö...

 

Yes, I noticed that, and wondered why.

 

Edit:

 

But this page;

 

http://www.mil.fi/tyojakoulutus/tyoskentely/palkkaus.dsp

 

lists combat divers under "Esimerkkejä sotilasammattihenkilöiden tehtävien palkkauksesta (SAH 2 - 6)".

Edited December 8, 2007 by A2Keltainen

[CV9030FIN]

Yes, I noticed that, and wondered why.

 

Edit:

 

But this page;

 

http://www.mil.fi/tyojakoulutus/tyoskentely/palkkaus.dsp

 

lists combat divers under "Esimerkkejä sotilasammattihenkilöiden tehtävien palkkauksesta (SAH 2 - 6)".

 

"Viimeksi päivitetty: 15.12.2006 klo 16:11" and compear to what I said in post 22

 

More about NCO's in here and it is said there for example that:

Aliupseerit palvelevat erikoisosaamista, -koulutusta ja -kokemusta vaativissa sotilaallisissa tehtävissä. Aliupseerien tehtäväkirjo on laaja, sillä erilaisia tehtävänimikkeitä on yli sata. He voivat toimia muun muassa vartiointi-, kuljetus- ja huoltotehtävissä, mutta myös esimerkiksi sotilassoittajina ja sukeltajina

Edited December 8, 2007 by CV9030FIN

[A2Keltainen]

"Viimeksi päivitetty: 15.12.2006 klo 16:11" and compear to what I said in

 

I think you are misunderstanding me. I'm not arguing against your information about the recent change in the Finnish AD system. I'm simply pointing out that combat divers seem to have been able to serve as sotilasammattihenkilö in the past, prior to the recent change in the system.