Deutsches Afrikakorps Help Needed

[BillB]

Hi all, mebbe one for our German brethren? I'm trying to find out the German rendering for some units from the 5th Light Division, specifically the 2nd and 8th Maching Gun Battalions. I've Googled and checked all the places that usually throw up the answers but no joy. Basically I need to know which of the following renderings is correct:

 

Maschine Gewehr Bataillon

 

Maschine Gewehr Abteilung

 

or some variation thereof.

 

All help/advice gratefully received,

BillB

[hojutsuka]

Hi all, mebbe one for our German brethren? I'm trying to find out the German rendering for some units from the 5th Light Division, specifically the 2nd and 8th Maching Gun Battalions. I've Googled and checked all the places that usually throw up the answers but no joy. Basically I need to know which of the following renderings is correct:

 

Maschine Gewehr Bataillon

 

Maschine Gewehr Abteilung

 

or some variation thereof.

 

All help/advice gratefully received,

BillB

Hi Bill,

 

First of all, "machine gun" in German is Maschinengewehr, all one word. If you abbreviate it, it becomes MG.

 

The correct term is Bataillon because the Machine Gun Battalions were part of the infantry.

 

Just to make sure, I looked in F. M. von Senger und Etterlin, "Die Panzergrenadiere", and on page 76 he notes that 21st Panzer Div's infantry included "MGBtl(mot.) 2 u. 8".

 

Hojutsuka

 

Spelling edit (can't keep { and ( straight!).

Edited November 14, 2007 by hojutsuka

[BillB]

Hi Bill,

 

First of all, "machine gun" in German is Maschinengewehr, all one word. If you abbreviate it, it becomes MG.

 

The correct term is Bataillon because the Machine Gun Battalions were part of the infantry.

 

Just to make sure, I looked in F. M. von Senger und Etterlin, "Die Panzergrenadiere", and on page 76 he notes that 21st Panzer Div's infantry included "MGBtl(mot.) 2 u. 8".

 

Hojutsuka

 

Spelling edit (can't keep { and ( straight!).

Blimey, that was quick! Excellent stuff, thanks very much hojutsuka, I owe you one.

 

BillB

[Brummbaer]

While Abteilung is properly referred to armor, recon and artillery batallion size units.

[ShotMagnet]

Bill,

 

'Abteilung' translates (in the sense you're looking for) into 'detachment'. In this case; maybe a team or a set of teams which are incorporated into another unit.

 

'Bataillon' on the other hand is German for 'battalion'.

 

You'll have worked out the distinction for yourself, but I'll include it here for completeness' sake. An abteilung is part of a larger unit; a bataillon is a unit unto itself, and is usually denoted with some formal designator.

 

 

Shot

[BansheeOne]

Actually Brummbaer's explanation is correct - Abteilung = Bataillon, depending upon branch. For example, the 5. Leichte Division in question had the following TO&E in 1941:

 

 

Panzer-Regiment 5

- HQ, signal platoon, 2 light tank platoons, band

 

- 2 Panzer-Abteilungen (I./5, II./5), each with

-- HQ, HQ company, light tank platoon

-- 2 light tank companies

-- medium tank company

-- light tank column

 

- tank repair company

 

- Panzer-Staffel (tank supply squadron)

 

 

Infanterie-Regiment HQ (mot) z.b.V. 200

- signal platoon (mot)

 

- Maschinengewehr-Bataillon (mot) 2

-- HQ, HQ company (signal platoon [mot], 2 motorbike rifle platoons) (8 light machineguns)

-- 3 machinegun companies (mot) (12 heavy machineguns, 3 light mortars, 3 anti-tank rifles each)

-- anti-tank company (mot) (6 anti-tank guns, 6 heavy mortars, 2 light machineguns)

-- 2 engineer companies (mot) (9 light machineguns each)

 

- Maschinengewehr-Bataillon (mot) 8

-- HQ, HQ company

-- 3 machinegun companies (mot)

-- anti-tank company (mot) (as in MG-Btl. [mot] 2)

-- anti-tank-company (mot) (9 anti-tank guns, 3 light machineguns)

-- engineer company (mot)

 

Each MG-Bataillon also had 10 APCs.

 

 

Aufklärungs-Abteilung (mot) 3

- HQ, signal platoon (mot) (2 light machineguns)

- armored recon company (2 platoons of Panzerspähwagen, 1 platoon with Volkswagen)

- motorbike rifle company (18 light machineguns, 2 heavy machineguns, 3 light mortars)

- heavy company (mot) (infantry gun platoon with 2 light infantry guns, anti-tank platoon with 3 anti-tank guns and 1 light machinegun, engineer platoon with 3 light machineguns)

 

 

Panzerjäger-Abteilung (mot) 39

- HQ, signal platoon (mot)

- 3 anti-tank companies (11 anti-tank guns of which 1 platoon 5 cm PaK, 6 light machineguns)

 

 

Panzerjäger-Abteilung 605 (Zgkw)

- HQ, signal platoon (mot)

- 3 anti-tank companies (motor-drawn) (9 8,8 cm PaK each)

 

 

Artillerie-Abteilung (mot) I./75

- 3 batteries (4 light howitzers each)

 

 

Flugabwehr-Bataillon (SfL) 605

- 3 batteries (12 SP 2 cm FlaK each)

 

 

Luftwaffen-Flugabwehr-Abteilung (mot) I./33

- HQ, signal platoon

- 3 8,8 cm anti-air batteries (mot)

- 2 2 cm anti-air batteries (mot)

- anti-air column (42 ts)

 

 

2. Heeresfliegerstaffel/14 (Pz) (Luftwaffe anti-tank squadron)

 

 

Entladestab z.b.V. (mot) 681 (unloading HQ)

 

 

Verladestab z.b.V. (mot) 683 (loading HQ)

 

 

Nachschub-Führer z.b.V. (mot) 668

 

- Nachschub-Kolonnen-Abteilung (mot) 533

-- 5 large motor vehicle columns

-- large motor vehicle column for fuel

-- repair company (mot)

 

- Nachschub-Kolonnen-Abteilung (mot) 619

-- 3 large motor vehicle columns

-- 6 small motor vehicle columns

 

- Nachschub-Bataillon (mot) 532

-- 3 supply companies (mot)

-- motor vehicle spare parts column

-- 2 tire squadrons (mot)

-- 2 mobile motor vehicle repair companies

-- water column

-- ammunition administration company

 

 

Administrative Services

- Provisions Office 341

- Bakery Company (mot) 531

- Butchery Platoon (mot) 503

- Water Column (mot) 645

 

 

Medical Services

- Medical Company (mot) 1/83

- Field Hospital (mot) 4/572

- Motor Ambulance Platoons 631 and 632

- Filter Device Column 877

 

 

Military Police Troop (mot) 309

 

 

Field Post Office (mot) z.b.V. 735

[Guest aevans]

Actually Brummbaer's explanation is correct - Abteilung = Bataillon, depending upon branch.

 

Almost seems like a linguistic artifact of the Napoleonic Wars. At that time, the only formally organized battalions that fought as tactical units were in the infantry regiments. In the cavalry, the equivalent were subdivisions of regiments into detachments of two or three squadrons. In the artillery, the equivalent was the grouping of several batteries into a tactical unit.

[hojutsuka]

Bill,

 

'Abteilung' translates (in the sense you're looking for) into 'detachment'. In this case; maybe a team or a set of teams which are incorporated into another unit.

 

'Bataillon' on the other hand is German for 'battalion'.

 

You'll have worked out the distinction for yourself, but I'll include it here for completeness' sake. An abteilung is part of a larger unit; a bataillon is a unit unto itself, and is usually denoted with some formal designator.

Shot

Shot,

 

You are correct in an etymological sense, but the reality in World War II (and earlier probably, but I know less about pre-Wehrmacht organization) was quite different.

 

There was no such clear distinction as you suppose, where an Abteilung was invariably a part of a larger unit and a Bataillon was an independent unit with its own separate designator. Exceptions to both abound.

 

Abteilung:

many Panzer Abteilungen were independent (i.e. not part of a Panzer Regiment). They include the heavy Tiger battalions (s.PzAbt 501-511) and Panzer Abteilungen of the Panzergrenadierdivisionen (PzAbt 103, 7, 215, 116, 228, 8, 5, 129, 190, etc.)

 

Aufklaerungsabteilungen were independent (3 and 33 in North Africa, for example)

 

many artillery Abteilungen were independent (leArtAbt 91, 95, 108,... sArtAbt 101-103, 106, 108,... HeeresArtAbt 101, 106, 108,... most Sturmgeschuetz Abteilungen etc.)

 

Bataillon:

the standard infantry regiment at the beginning of the war had 14 companies, numbered 1 through 14. Companies 1-4 formed the I. Bataillon, 5-8 the II. Bataillon, and 9-12 the III. Bataillon. Companies 13 and 14 were infantry howitzer and antitank companies directly under regimental command.

 

In general it appears that "Bataillon" was used for units that were infantry or had infantry lineage in some way. This includes units designated Infanterie-, Grenadier-, Fusilier-, Jaeger-, Gebirgsjaeger-, Karstjaeger-, Fallschirmjaeger-, Pionier-, Sicherung-, etc.

 

"Abteilung" was used for other arms.

 

To illustrate this (and to show how complex this can get ) I will give two examples.

 

1. In the pre-war Wehrmacht, the Panzer Divisions and the Light Divisions both had Schuetzen (basically motorized infantry). In the Panzer Divisions, they were designated as "Bataillon" (e.g. II.Bataillon/Schuetzenregiment 1). The Light Divisions were considered cavalry, however, so their Schuetzen were designated as "Abteilung" (e.g. II.Abteilung/Kavalrieschuetzenregiment 9).

 

2. In the middle of the war, the Heer was given permission to form its own FlaK units. Those units formed by the artillery were designated Heeres-Flakabteilungen, while those formed by the infantry were termed Heeres-Flakbataillonen.

 

Hojutsuka

[Rich]

2. In the middle of the war, the Heer was given permission to form its own FlaK units. Those units formed by the artillery were designated Heeres-Flakabteilungen, while those formed by the infantry were termed Heeres-Flakbataillonen.

 

Hojutsuka

 

But, being German, they had to have at least one oddity. When Heeres-Flak-Batallion 605 reorganized it was as Heeres-Flak-Abteilung 290.

 

But yes, you are correct, the Abteilung/Batallion thing is essentially branch-specific.

[BillB]

Thanks to all for the input, just the job and far more than I expected or prolly warranted!

 

BillB

[hojutsuka]

But, being German, they had to have at least one oddity. When Heeres-Flak-Batallion 605 reorganized it was as Heeres-Flak-Abteilung 290.

Hi Rich,

 

Not so odd, it probably represents the unit being transferred from Infantry to Artillery.

 

It was not that unique, either. Apparently 20 Infanterie-Fla-Bataillone were taken over by the Artillery Arm in January 1945 and used to build Heeres-Flakartillerie-Brigaden 501-510 (Georg Tessin, "Verbaende und Truppen...", vol I, page 212). On page 144 Tessin lists Infanterie-Fla-Bataillonen 821-826 and 832-836 as being used to build Heeres-Flakartillerie-Brigaden 501-506, but unfortunately he does not list the other 9 Infanterie-Fla-Bataillonen that were taken over.

 

When did Infanterie-Fla-Bataillon 605 become Heeres-Flak-Abteilung 290? If around January 1945, it was almost certainly because Infanterie-Fla-Bataillon 605 had been taken over for one of Heeres-Flakartillerie-Brigaden 501-510.

 

Regards,

Hojutsuka

 

PS: [picky] German spelling is Bataillon. [/picky]

[cbo]

But, being German, they had to have at least one oddity. When Heeres-Flak-Batallion 605 reorganized it was as Heeres-Flak-Abteilung 290.

 

But yes, you are correct, the Abteilung/Batallion thing is essentially branch-specific.

 

...and then, of course, sometimes an "Abteilung" was really a detachment like "Armee Abteilung Kempf" or "Armee-Abteilung Fretter-Pico"

 

cbo

[Rich]

Hi Rich,

 

Not so odd, it probably represents the unit being transferred from Infantry to Artillery.

 

Hi! Ho! (Sorry, couldn't resist, tis the season and all that. ) Yeah, I suppose intra-branch transfers aren't that unusual, but it still looks odd, and....

It was not that unique, either. Apparently 20 Infanterie-Fla-Bataillone were taken over by the Artillery Arm in January 1945 and used to build Heeres-Flakartillerie-Brigaden 501-510 (Georg Tessin, "Verbaende und Truppen...", vol I, page 212). On page 144 Tessin lists Infanterie-Fla-Bataillonen 821-826 and 832-836 as being used to build Heeres-Flakartillerie-Brigaden 501-506, but unfortunately he does not list the other 9 Infanterie-Fla-Bataillonen that were taken over.

 

They were something very different from what I referred to. Those "Infanterie"-Flak-Bataillonen of the 800-series were originally formed in late 1944 as Festungs-MG-Bataillonen and then became Festungs-Flak-Batallonen, before some were made nominally "mobile" and then grouped in the Heeres-Flakartillerie-Brigaden. But AFAIK they remained Bataillone, although were renumbered sequentially as part of the parent Brigade and were not redesignated as Abteilungen, nor were they ever actually referred to as "Infanterie-Flak" AFAIK?

 

When did Infanterie-Fla-Bataillon 605 become Heeres-Flak-Abteilung 290? If around January 1945, it was almost certainly because Infanterie-Fla-Bataillon 605 had been taken over for one of Heeres-Flakartillerie-Brigaden 501-510.

Here is where you are confused the 800-series Festung-Flak-Bataillonen were a completely different animal and were created in a completely different period of the war. A total of 35 numbered and two named Heeres-Flak-Bataillonen were formed 1939-1943, a number of them by the redesignation of MG-Bataillonen. They were all organized as motorized, mobile units, so were quite different from the Festungs-Bataillonen formed later. They were also never designated "Infanterie-Flak" that I have seen in any documentation, but rather were Heeres-Flak, although like the later Festungs-Flak they were formed in the Infanterie branch and wore white Waffenfarbe.

 

605 was formed 20 January 1940 and on 1 November 1942 was disbanded, with the Stab forming Stab/Heeres-Flak-Abteilung 290, 1. Batterie was used to form the firing batteries of Heeres-Flak 292, 2. Batterie the firing batteries of Heeres Flak 290, and 3. Batterie went to Artillerie-Regiment 88.

 

PS: [picky] German spelling is Bataillon. [/picky]

 

Er, yes, but my hasty mistyping doesn't usually mean that I'm wrong....

 

Rich

[hojutsuka]

Er, yes, but my hasty mistyping doesn't usually mean that I'm wrong....

I know, Rich. I was just being picky!

 

They were something very different from what I referred to. Those "Infanterie"-Flak-Bataillonen of the 800-series were originally formed in late 1944 as Festungs-MG-Bataillonen and then became Festungs-Flak-Batallonen, before some were made nominally "mobile" and then grouped in the Heeres-Flakartillerie-Brigaden. But AFAIK they remained Bataillone, although were renumbered sequentially as part of the parent Brigade and were not redesignated as Abteilungen, nor were they ever actually referred to as "Infanterie-Flak" AFAIK?

You are correct in saying that the 800-series battalions were originally formed as Festungs-Maschinengewehr-Bataillonen. However, Tessin definitely refers to them as "Infanterie-Fla-Bataillone". A direct quote from Tessin, "Verbaende...", page 144 follows (I can't do umlauts, so I am using the convention of "ue" for "u" with umlaut):

 

Die zweite Gruppe (801-839) umfasste 39 Festung-MG-Bataillone (1944 36, 1945 nur noch 3), die auch als ueberschwere (ss) MG-Bataillone 2 cm-Drilling (mot) bezeichnet und am 9. 11. 1944 in Festungs-Infanterie- oder nur: Infanterie-Fla-Bataillone umbennant wurden. Elf von ihnen (821-826 und 832-836) dienten 1945 zur Aufstellung der Heers-Flakartillerie-Brigaden [sic - H.] 501-506.

The bolding is in the original. The "Heers-Flakartillerie-Brigaden" is presumably just a typo, as he says "Heeres-Flakartillerie-Brigaden" elsewhere. Tessin also refers to "Infanterie-Fla-Bataillone(n)" on pages 38 and 212.

 

Can you cite a direct quote which shows that the subunits of the Heeres-Flakartillerie-Brigaden 501-510 were designated as "Bataillonen"?

 

Here is where you are confused the 800-series Festung-Flak-Bataillonen were a completely different animal and were created in a completely different period of the war. A total of 35 numbered and two named Heeres-Flak-Bataillonen were formed 1939-1943, a number of them by the redesignation of MG-Bataillonen. They were all organized as motorized, mobile units, so were quite different from the Festungs-Bataillonen formed later. They were also never designated "Infanterie-Flak" that I have seen in any documentation, but rather were Heeres-Flak, although like the later Festungs-Flak they were formed in the Infanterie branch and wore white Waffenfarbe.

 

605 was formed 20 January 1940 and on 1 November 1942 was disbanded, with the Stab forming Stab/Heeres-Flak-Abteilung 290, 1. Batterie was used to form the firing batteries of Heeres-Flak 292, 2. Batterie the firing batteries of Heeres Flak 290, and 3. Batterie went to Artillerie-Regiment 88.

What am I supposed to be confused about? I do understand that German TOE changed a lot throughout the war, so that even if the designation remained (nearly) the same, the actual organization might change over the course of the war. And if it is called "Festung-" of course it is likely to be much different from a field unit.

 

But my point in my earlier post (#21) was that I did not find it too surprising to see Fla-Bataillon 605 disbanded and being used to build Heeres-Flakartillerie-Abteilung 290 and other artillery units. After all, the first 8 Fla-Bataillone formed by the infantry (31, 46, 47, 48, 52, 55, 59, 66) were broken up to form a fourth (antiaircraft) company for the antitank battalions of the 1st Wave divisions. From Tessin, page 143:

 

Da bei Kriegsbeginn aber erst acht Bataillone vorhanden waren, wurden diese von 3 auf 6 Kompanien verstaerkt, so dass aus den 48 Kompanien jede Panzerjaeger-Abteilung der Divisionen 1. Welle eine 4. Fla-Kompanie erhalten konnte; diese verteilten Kompanien fuehrten sehr umstaendliche Bezeichnungen wie z. B.: "4./Pz.Abw.Abt. 1 und 1. MGK (schw./motZ) 31". Bataillonsstaebe bestanden nicht. Am 1. 6. 1942 wurden die Kompanien in Schuetzen-Regimenter, Panzerjaeger-Abteilungen, und Heeresflak eingegliedert.

So while the separated companies initially retained their original link to the Fla-Bataillone of the infantry from which they derived, they were eventually absorbed by the arm to which they were attached (the "Heeresflak" mentioned by Tessin is IMHO most likely Artillery because Tessin consistently uses "Fla-Bataillon" or "Infanterie-Fla-Bataillon" for Flak units of the infantry, while he uses "Heeres-Flakartillerie-" and "Heeresflak-" for artillery units).

 

Now that you have given me the details for the disbanding of Fla-Bataillon 605, I see that it had nothing to do with the creation of Heeres-Flakartillerie-Brigaden 501-510. Thank you.

 

Regards,

Hojutsuka

[Rich]

I know, Rich. I was just being picky!

 

 

You are correct in saying that the 800-series battalions were originally formed as Festungs-Maschinengewehr-Bataillonen. However, Tessin definitely refers to them as "Infanterie-Fla-Bataillone". A direct quote from Tessin, "Verbaende...", page 144 follows (I can't do umlauts, so I am using the convention of "ue" for "u" with umlaut):

The bolding is in the original. The "Heers-Flakartillerie-Brigaden" is presumably just a typo, as he says "Heeres-Flakartillerie-Brigaden" elsewhere. Tessin also refers to "Infanterie-Fla-Bataillone(n)" on pages 38 and 212.

 

Interesting, I missed that then. But it remains a oddly curious designation, especially since they remained Heerestruppen, it seems inconsistant with the designations used late war?

 

Can you cite a direct quote which shows that the subunits of the Heeres-Flakartillerie-Brigaden 501-510 were designated as "Bataillonen"?

No, but neither is there anything to indicate that they changed to Abteilungen, nor is there any record that the battalions not incorporated did. And doing so would be inconsistant again, since the Brigaden remained part of the Infanterie I believe?

 

What am I supposed to be confused about? I do understand that German TOE changed a lot throughout the war, so that even if the designation remained (nearly) the same, the actual organization might change over the course of the war. And if it is called "Festung-" of course it is likely to be much different from a field unit.

 

I thought you were confusing the early war Heeres-Flak-Bataillonen with the late war ones you referenced, and given your question re 605. I had little evidence you knew of the earlier battalions? And this isn't a matter of TOE changes, these are branch transfers, which are different, if for no other reason than simple branch rivalries. I doubt, for instance, that the Infanterie were all that happy at losing personnel to the Artillerie?

 

But my point in my earlier post (#21) was that I did not find it too surprising to see Fla-Bataillon 605 disbanded and being used to build Heeres-Flakartillerie-Abteilung 290 and other artillery units. After all, the first 8 Fla-Bataillone formed by the infantry (31, 46, 47, 48, 52, 55, 59, 66) were broken up to form a fourth (antiaircraft) company for the antitank battalions of the 1st Wave divisions. From Tessin, page 143:

So while the separated companies initially retained their original link to the Fla-Bataillone of the infantry from which they derived, they were eventually absorbed by the arm to which they were attached (the "Heeresflak" mentioned by Tessin is IMHO most likely Artillery because Tessin consistently uses "Fla-Bataillon" or "Infanterie-Fla-Bataillon" for Flak units of the infantry, while he uses "Heeres-Flakartillerie-" and "Heeresflak-" for artillery units).

Er, not quite? Fla-Btl. 31 was utilized to form 2./Fla-Btl. 22 for 22. Luftlande-Division, the other five companies went to form Flak-Kompanien in various Schutzen-Regimenter (mot), Fla-Btl. 41 had 3. Kp. go to Heeres-Flak 298 and the other five also to Schutzen-Regimenter (mot), 47. had four companies go to various Pak Abteilungen and two evidently to Schutzen-Regimenter (mot), 52. had two companies disbanded, two were transfered to Fla-Btl 22. and 613., and two went to Schutzen-Regimenter (mot), 55. had one company destroyed in Stalingrad, two went to Fla-Btl. and three went to Pak-Abtl., and 59. had companies to other Fla-Btl., Pak-Abtl., and Schutzen-Regimenter (mot). It was kind of a grab bag. So some were retained in their branch and some went to the artillery as Flak or Pak.

 

So I think Tessin may have been using the distinction after 1942, when there were Heeres-Flak-Abteilungen and Bataillonen, a situation that was further muddied with the creation of the Festungs-Flak-Bataillonen. I suspect it may be a distinction that he created to try to prevent confusion?

 

Now that you have given me the details for the disbanding of Fla-Bataillon 605, I see that it had nothing to do with the creation of Heeres-Flakartillerie-Brigaden 501-510. Thank you.

 

No problem, I just think one or both of us is being too picky.

[hojutsuka]

No problem, I just think one or both of us is being too picky.

I hope I am not being too picky!

 

You see, I am genuinely interested in questions like these, but I have little opportunity to actually find out more. I have my excerpts from Tessin that I made years ago when I had access to it, of course, but they are patchy and in any case, with anything as wide-ranging in scope as "Verbaende..." there are going to be errors and typos. But I know that you are a serious researcher with access to primary sources, so I am going to try to get as much information from you as I can!

 

When you and Tessin agree, I can be sure that the information is nearly certainly correct. When you and Tessin disagree, I am afraid I will be asking you for more information so that I can understand what is likely to be the facts.

 

You can always tell me that you are too busy doing real work if I get too pestiferous!

 

Er, not quite? Fla-Btl. 31 was utilized to form 2./Fla-Btl. 22 for 22. Luftlande-Division, the other five companies went to form Flak-Kompanien in various Schutzen-Regimenter (mot), Fla-Btl. 41 had 3. Kp. go to Heeres-Flak 298 and the other five also to Schutzen-Regimenter (mot), 47. had four companies go to various Pak Abteilungen and two evidently to Schutzen-Regimenter (mot), 52. had two companies disbanded, two were transfered to Fla-Btl 22. and 613., and two went to Schutzen-Regimenter (mot), 55. had one company destroyed in Stalingrad, two went to Fla-Btl. and three went to Pak-Abtl., and 59. had companies to other Fla-Btl., Pak-Abtl., and Schutzen-Regimenter (mot). It was kind of a grab bag. So some were retained in their branch and some went to the artillery as Flak or Pak.

Thank you! Very interesting data, which raises some interesting questions!

 

Tessin gives the first 8 Fla-Bataillone formed by the infantry as (31, 46, 47, 48, 52, 55, 59, 66). Your post gives detailed information on five of them (31, 47, 52, 55, 59) but not about three (46, 48, 66) and includes Fla-Btl. 41 which is not in Tessin's list.

 

Is Fla-Btl. 41 a typo for Fla-Btl. 46 or 48? And can you provide information on what happened to the companies of the battalions you did not mention? Thank you!

 

So some were retained in their branch and some went to the artillery as Flak or Pak.

No, all of these (except maybe Fla-Btl.22, which I will discuss later) represent branch transfers. Schuetzen and Panzerjaeger both belonged to Schnelle Truppen rather than to Infanterie or Artillerie.

 

So I still think that the disbanding of Fla-Bataillon 605 to build Heeres-Flakartillerie-Abteilung 290 and other artillery units is not that unique an event.

 

In order to keep the posts from becoming unwieldy, I will divide my reply into several posts.

 

Hojutsuka

[hojutsuka]

Can you cite a direct quote which shows that the subunits of the Heeres-Flakartillerie-Brigaden 501-510 were designated as "Bataillonen"?

 

No, but neither is there anything to indicate that they changed to Abteilungen, nor is there any record that the battalions not incorporated did. And doing so would be inconsistant again, since the Brigaden remained part of the Infanterie I believe?

I do not know about the Infanterie-Fla-Bataillone, but Tessin puts the Heeres-Flakartillerie-Brigaden 501-510 under Artillerie (Tessin. page 196, page 212). I was hoping that you could settle the Infanterie-Fla-Bataillone question definitely.

 

Hojutsuka

[Rich]

Thank you! Very interesting data, which raises some interesting questions!

 

No problem.

 

Tessin gives the first 8 Fla-Bataillone formed by the infantry as (31, 46, 47, 48, 52, 55, 59, 66). Your post gives detailed information on five of them (31, 47, 52, 55, 59) but not about three (46, 48, 66) and includes Fla-Btl. 41 which is not in Tessin's list.

 

Is Fla-Btl. 41 a typo for Fla-Btl. 46 or 48? And can you provide information on what happened to the companies of the battalions you did not mention? Thank you!

Ugh! Yep, "41" should have been "46", sorry.

 

On 1 June 1942 Fla-Btl. 48. was broken up and the Stab disbanded.

1. Kompanie went to Infanterie-Regiment 92

2. Kompanie went to Infanterie-Regiment 126

3. Kompanie was destroyed in Stalingrad

4. Kompanie went to Panzerjäger-Abteilung 43

5. Kompanie went to Infanterie-Regiment 18

6. Kompanie no info, maybe disbanded?

 

On 1 June 1942 Fla-Btl. 66 was broken up and the Stab disbanded.

1. Kompanie went to Panzerjäger-Abteilung 27

2. Kompanie was destroyed in Stalingrad

3. Kompanie went to Schützen-Regiment 11

4. Kompanie was destroyed in Stalingrad

5. Kompanie went to Heeres-Flak-Abteilung 290

6. Kompanie went to Panzerjäger-Abteilung 13

 

No, all of these (except maybe Fla-Btl.22, which I will discuss later) represent branch transfers. Schuetzen and Panzerjaeger both belonged to Schnelle Truppen rather than to Infanterie or Artillerie.

 

Not exactly, although I see what you mean. The Schnelle Truppen were not really a "branch" but were rather a class of divisions and their supporting troops that included troops from many branches and was distinguished by their mobility (although not, as is frequently thought, neccessarily by their mechanization). Thus, they initially included the Panzer-Divisionen, the Infanterie-Divisionen (motorisiert), and the Kavallerie-Division that in turn comprised troops both from branches exclusive to the Schnelle Truppen (Panzer and Kavallerie/Reiter) as well as branches found in divisions not included in the Schnelle Truppen (Infanterie, Artillerie, Pioniere, Nebelwerfer, Nachschub, Nachrichten, Sanitäts, and so on). One source of confusion was that the infantry element of the Panzer-Division were known as Schützen while in the Infanterie-Division (mot.) they were Infanterie, but both were in fact derived from the same branch. Later things got more blurred and the distinctions became less easy to follow, but basically they were between the Schnelle Truppen, the Infanterie-Divisionen, and the Fechtende-Heerestruppen and each group could and did contain troops from the different branches. Thus, the Infanterie-Division included a Reiter Schwadron (later Aufklärungs Abteilung) and a Panzerjäger-Abteilung that were Schnelle Truppen, but the division was not part of the Schnelle Truppen, and the Fechtende-Heerestruppen also included a large number of Schnelle Truppen, but not divisional units.

 

Do you think they could have tried to make it more complicated?

 

So I still think that the disbanding of Fla-Bataillon 605 to build Heeres-Flakartillerie-Abteilung 290 and other artillery units is not that unique an event.

 

No, not unique, but still a bit odd perhaps?

[hojutsuka]

Thank you, Rich! Very interesting. Were all 8 Fla-Bataillone broken up as of 1 June 1942?

 

I take it that companies noted as "destroyed at Stalingrad" actually went to Infanterie-Regiment, Schützen-Regiment, or Panzerjäger-Abteilung belonging to divisions that were later destroyed at Stalingrad?

 

When was Fla-Bataillon 605 disbanded to form to build Heeres-Flakartillerie-Abteilung 290 and other artillery units? I notice that 5./Fla-Bataillon 66 went to Heeres-Flakartillerie-Abteilung 290 as well. Did this all happen around June 1942?

 

Not exactly, although I see what you mean. The Schnelle Truppen were not really a "branch" but were rather a class of divisions and their supporting troops that included troops from many branches and was distinguished by their mobility (although not, as is frequently thought, neccessarily by their mechanization). ....

Thank you for the clarification. Does this change with the establishment of Panzer Truppen and appointment of Guderian as its Inspector General in March 1943, i.e. is Panzer Truppen a branch? Guderian says that the Artillerie refused to give up assault guns because they felt that "the assault artillery was the only weapon which nowadays enabled gunners to win the Knight's Cross" ("Panzer Leader", page 237). This sounds like the assault gun crews in Panzerjäger units were no longer considered to be part of Artillerie.

 

Regards,

Hojutsuka

[Rich]

Thank you, Rich! Very interesting. Were all 8 Fla-Bataillone broken up as of 1 June 1942?

 

That's what it looks like to me, it may have been a general order for the whole block of units. Martin Block, Christoph Awender, or some of the others more knowledgable in the orders of the Org.-Abtl. of the General Stabe des Heeres may be able to tell you.

 

I take it that companies noted as "destroyed at Stalingrad" actually went to Infanterie-Regiment, Schützen-Regiment, or Panzerjäger-Abteilung belonging to divisions that were later destroyed at Stalingrad?

I rather expect so, but the regiments they were assigned to I haven't seen given. Possibly some of the records of the Abwicklungsstabe Stalingrad may say, again I would check with some of those more deeply into that minutia.

 

When was Fla-Bataillon 605 disbanded to form to build Heeres-Flakartillerie-Abteilung 290 and other artillery units? I notice that 5./Fla-Bataillon 66 went to Heeres-Flakartillerie-Abteilung 290 as well. Did this all happen around June 1942?

 

No, that was in November 1942. Most of the 600-series battalions continued in existance until around May 1943 when they were either destroyed or disbanded. 501. is an odd one becuase it was formed in Italy from diverse units as Heerestruppen for 10. Armee. 103. and 276. were formed in the fall of 1944, while 958, 959, and 960 were formed 8 August 1943 in France as Heerestruppen, probably with one each assigned to 1. Armee (958?), 7. Armee, and 15. Armee?

 

Thank you for the clarification. Does this change with the establishment of Panzer Truppen and appointment of Guderian as its Inspector General in March 1943, i.e. is Panzer Truppen a branch? Guderian says that the Artillerie refused to give up assault guns because they felt that "the assault artillery was the only weapon which nowadays enabled gunners to win the Knight's Cross" ("Panzer Leader", page 237). This sounds like the assault gun crews in Panzerjäger units were no longer considered to be part of Artillerie.

 

The Sturmartillerie and Panzerjäger were two separate organizations, the first part of the artillerie, while the second were part of the original Schnelle Truppen (Panzer, Schützen, Kradschützen, Panzerabwehr, Aufklärung, and Reiter) although originally drawn from the Artillerie (in the same way the Panzer, Aufklärung, and Reiter were all originally drawn from the Kavallerie and the Schützen and Kradschützen were drawn from the Infanterie). So yes, the Panzertruppen was a branch, but the organization that Guderian became Inspektur General of in 1943 wasn't a "branch" it was a staff organization intended to administer training and doctrine of all Schnelle Truppen, which meant that he did not have direct control of the Sturmartillerie, since they remained under the Artillerie inspectorate.

 

Clear? Clear as mud I'm sure, like a lot of German organizational oddities.

[hojutsuka]

Once again, thank you, Rich, for your information!

 

We do seem to be talking past each other on one point, probably because I did not make my post clear enough.

 

The Sturmartillerie and Panzerjäger were two separate organizations, the first part of the artillerie, while the second were part of the original Schnelle Truppen (Panzer, Schützen, Kradschützen, Panzerabwehr, Aufklärung, and Reiter) although originally drawn from the Artillerie (in the same way the Panzer, Aufklärung, and Reiter were all originally drawn from the Kavallerie and the Schützen and Kradschützen were drawn from the Infanterie). So yes, the Panzertruppen was a branch, but the organization that Guderian became Inspektur General of in 1943 wasn't a "branch" it was a staff organization intended to administer training and doctrine of all Schnelle Truppen, which meant that he did not have direct control of the Sturmartillerie, since they remained under the Artillerie inspectorate.

 

Clear? Clear as mud I'm sure, like a lot of German organizational oddities.

Yes, I do know that the Sturmartillerie was part of the Artillerie from its beginnings in World War I, and remained so to the end of World War II.

 

We had been discussing branch transfers (of the manpower of Fla-Bataillon 605 from Infanterie to Artillerie in particular) and you made the valid point that such transfers are generally resisted by the branch that is losing the personnel.

 

However, the fact that the branches might disapprove of such transfers do not mean they do not occur, and sometimes on a large scale.

 

I had thought that the assignment of companies from the first 8 Fla-Bataillonen to Schützen represented a branch transfer to Schnelle Truppen, but as you pointed out, Schnelle Truppen was a class of units, and while Schützen were included in Schnelle Truppen, they still belonged to Infanterie branch (although transfers to Panzerjäger represented branch transfers to Artillerie). I accept your point about this.

 

However, when Guderian became Inspektur General der Panzertruppen on March 1, 1943, he asked for a document detailing the assignment of his duties which was signed by Hitler and which he quotes in full in "Panzer Leader" (pages 227, 230). In a footnote, this document says:

 

In this assignment of duties, 'armored troops' includes: tank troops, rifle components of panzer divisions (Panzergrenadiere), motorized infantry, armored reconnaissance troops, anti-tank troops, and heavy assault guns.

 

Since Panzertruppen was a branch, this seems to me to document massive transfers between branches, from Infanterie (rifle components of panzer divisions and motorized infantry), Kavallerie (armored reconnaissance troops), and Artillerie (anti-tank troops) to Panzertruppen.

 

My point in bringing up assault artillery in my previous post was that the Artillerie succeeded in getting the word heavy inserted in the footnote before "assault guns", thus keeping the existing units of Sturmartillerie (which were equipped with StuG III and IV for the most part) out of the Panzertruppen and in the Artillerie.

 

I do not understand what you mean when you say:

 

'So yes, the Panzertruppen was a branch, but the organization that Guderian became Inspektur General of in 1943 wasn't a "branch" it was a staff organization intended to administer training and doctrine of all Schnelle Truppen'

 

Unfortunately, my copy of "Panzer Leader" is an English translation, but the document detailing the assignment of his duties signed by Hitler says:

 

The Inspector-General of Armored Troops is directly subordinated to myself [i.e. Hitler - H.]. He has the command powers of an army commander and is the senior officer of armored troops.

 

so I think it is clear that he was Inspector General of the Panzertruppen branch.

 

You are correct that Guderian had responsibility for training and doctrine not just for Panzertruppen but for all Schnelle Truppen. But this was part of his duties as Inspektur General der Panzertruppen as seen from the following quotes from the document detailing the assignment of his duties:

 

2. The Inspector General of Armored Troops is responsible, in consultation with the Chief of the Army General Staff, for the organization and training of armored troops and of the large mobile formations of the Army.

 

...

 

4. The Inspector General of Armored Troops will ensure that the new units of, and replacements for, armored and mobile troops are made ready punctually as ordered and according to plan.

 

...

 

6. The Inspector General of Armored Troops, as senior officer of his arm of the Service, is permanently in command of:

(a) All reserve and training units of mobile troops (excepting reserve units of the cavalry and of motorcycles) which are grouped together in special commands.

(b ) All schools for mobile troops (excepting cavalry and motorcyclist schools), both of the field and the training army, together with all instructional troops attached to such schools.

 

So it seems to me that Guderian was indeed the Inspector General of the the Panzertruppen branch, but he also had responsibilities for mobile troops beyond those included in the Panzertruppen.

 

regards,

Hojutsuka

[Rich]

Once again, thank you, Rich, for your information!

 

We do seem to be talking past each other on one point, probably because I did not make my post clear enough.

Yes, I do know that the Sturmartillerie was part of the Artillerie from its beginnings in World War I, and remained so to the end of World War II.

 

We had been discussing branch transfers (of the manpower of Fla-Bataillon 605 from Infanterie to Artillerie in particular) and you made the valid point that such transfers are generally resisted by the branch that is losing the personnel.

 

However, the fact that the branches might disapprove of such transfers do not mean they do not occur, and sometimes on a large scale.

 

Okay, I wondered, since you seemed to have a lot of good in depth knowledge, I just misunderstood the thrust of your question I think? And of course branch disapproval often means nada when push comes to shove, but the Artillerie was a powerful inspectorate and Hitler of course was big gun happy.

 

I had thought that the assignment of companies from the first 8 Fla-Bataillonen to Schützen represented a branch transfer to Schnelle Truppen, but as you pointed out, Schnelle Truppen was a class of units, and while Schützen were included in Schnelle Truppen, they still belonged to Infanterie branch (although transfers to Panzerjäger represented branch transfers to Artillerie). I accept your point about this.

 

However, when Guderian became Inspektur General der Panzertruppen on March 1, 1943, he asked for a document detailing the assignment of his duties which was signed by Hitler and which he quotes in full in "Panzer Leader" (pages 227, 230). In a footnote, this document says:

 

In this assignment of duties, 'armored troops' includes: tank troops, rifle components of panzer divisions (Panzergrenadiere), motorized infantry, armored reconnaissance troops, anti-tank troops, and heavy assault guns.

 

Since Panzertruppen was a branch, this seems to me to document massive transfers between branches, from Infanterie (rifle components of panzer divisions and motorized infantry), Kavallerie (armored reconnaissance troops), and Artillerie (anti-tank troops) to Panzertruppen.

 

My point in bringing up assault artillery in my previous post was that the Artillerie succeeded in getting the word heavy inserted in the footnote before "assault guns", thus keeping the existing units of Sturmartillerie (which were equipped with StuG III and IV for the most part) out of the Panzertruppen and in the Artillerie.

 

I don't think so, this was simply a reaffirmation of what the Schnelle Truppen consisted of, minus the Kavallerie, which were pretty much temprarily non-existant or represented by the Panzer and Aufklärungstruppen. But the confusion I believe is compounded by a poor translation, the "heavy assault guns" referred to were the Sturmpanzer, not the Sturmartillerie, which were just then forming and equipping with the Brumbär. There never were schweres Heeres-Sturmartillerie that I am aware of?

 

I do not understand what you mean when you say:

 

'So yes, the Panzertruppen was a branch, but the organization that Guderian became Inspektur General of in 1943 wasn't a "branch" it was a staff organization intended to administer training and doctrine of all Schnelle Truppen'

 

Unfortunately, my copy of "Panzer Leader" is an English translation, but the document detailing the assignment of his duties signed by Hitler says:

 

The Inspector-General of Armored Troops is directly subordinated to myself [i.e. Hitler - H.]. He has the command powers of an army commander and is the senior officer of armored troops.

 

so I think it is clear that he was Inspector General of the Panzertruppen branch.

 

My fault again for not being clear. Yes, he was head of the Panzertruppen, but also by virtue of Hitler's expansion of his duties he was also de facto head of the Schnelle Truppen, which was something new. So he also had considerable latitude with regards to the Infanterie-Division (mot.), even though they were part of the Infanterie inspectorate, even after they were renamed that summer as Panzergrenadier. Same for the Panzerartillerie

 

So it seems to me that Guderian was indeed the Inspector General of the the Panzertruppen branch, but he also had responsibilities for mobile troops beyond those included in the Panzertruppen.

 

Yes, again, sorry for being unclear.

Edited December 15, 2007 by Rich

[BillB]

Hi all,

 

on the scrounge again, can someone give me the German rendering of 15th Motorcycle Battalion (from 15 Panzer Div)

 

Also, on a slightly different angle one for the Italian guys/speakers - is 62nd Regiment Della Fanteria the correct way to render 62nd Infantry Regiment?

 

TIA,

BillB

 

[edited for additional request]

[BillB]

BTT for more scrounging (see previous post)

 

BillB

[Rich]

Also, on a slightly different angle one for the Italian guys/speakers - is 62nd Regiment Della Fanteria the correct way to render 62nd Infantry Regiment?

 

62o reggimento fanteria would be the correct way. With the "o" following the 62 in superscript.