Hamas

[Kenneth P. Katz]

Hamas fights like an army

 

During the patrol company's operations deep in Palestinian territory, four Hamas militants and one Israel Defense Forces soldier, Sergeant-Major (Res.) Ehud Efrati, were killed. "The people we killed weren't terrorists, they were soldiers," an officer in the company told Haaretz. "In a direct confrontation, the IDF has superiority over them, but in all parameters - training, equipment quality, operational discipline - we are facing an army, not gangs," he said.

"The fingerprints of Iran and Hezbollah are all over it," a veteran intelligence officer said. "The Palestinians never looked like this."

[Tim the Tank Nut]

that's great! The West knows how to destroy an army. We're much better at that than insurgencies.

[Bluelight]

that's great! The West knows how to destroy an army. We're much better at that than insurgencies.

 

You have to wonder what the empires of the past would think if they saw us now.

[Jim Martin]

You have to wonder what the empires of the past would think if they saw us now.

 

 

"Easy meat".

[Sardaukar]

Sure...they'd love to charge into artillery and MG fire with swords and spears...

 

Whatever happens, we have got

The Maxim gun, and they have not.

 

And it does not matter what they'd think...their empires and states are long gone. But basic principles still apply...know your frends and enemies..punish your enemies and reward your friends. That's where it gets muddled nowadays

Edited November 10, 2007 by Sardaukar

[Jim Martin]

And it does not matter what they'd think...their empires and states are long gone. But basic principles still apply...know your frends and enemies..punish your enemies and reward your friends. That's where it gets muddled nowadays

 

 

Exactly. The West is incapable of defending its borders and interests, not due to a lack of technology and potential military power, but due to a lack of will to use such power and an overwhelming sense of guilt, self-loathing, and moral relativism. And that's why any of the old empires would consider us "Easy Meat". Because eventually another culture (eventually? Already happening) will threaten our civilization, and we won't fight back.

[Xavier]

Exactly. The West is incapable of defending its borders and interests, not due to a lack of technology and potential military power, but due to a lack of will to use such power and an overwhelming sense of guilt, self-loathing, and moral relativism. And that's why any of the old empires would consider us "Easy Meat". Because eventually another culture (eventually? Already happening) will threaten our civilization, and we won't fight back.

presuming you mean islam extremism, while they definitely have the will to enslave/convert/exterminate the West, they are quite short of the necessary means to do so, and not enough cannon fodder to compensate that, they are not Germany, Imperial Japan, Vikings, Mongols, etc, but more like pirates, a mighty pain in the ass, but undangerous to your civilization.

 

that said, you are about right with the blue part, although I'd expect that to change when a real threat arises, one of Imperial/Nazi Germany or USSR caliber

[Jim Martin]

presuming you mean islam extremism, while they definitely have the will to enslave/convert/exterminate the West, they are quite short of the necessary means to do so, and not enough cannon fodder to compensate that, they are not Germany, Imperial Japan, Vikings, Mongols, etc, but more like pirates, a mighty pain in the ass, but undangerous to your civilization.

 

that said, you are about right with the blue part, although I'd expect that to change when a real threat arises, one of Imperial/Nazi Germany or USSR caliber

 

 

Have you noticed that Western Civilization used to thrive in Rhodesia, and it's distinctly lacking in Zimbabwe? The jury is still out on South Africa, but their Health Minister insists that AIDS is not a public health problem, and one of their recent "Cultural" ministers numbered among her hobbies incinerating people with gasoline-filled tires.

 

Western civilization is in retreat where it isn't half-heartedly holding the line.

[Xavier]

Have you noticed that Western Civilization used to thrive in Rhodesia, and it's distinctly lacking in Zimbabwe? The jury is still out on South Africa, but their Health Minister insists that AIDS is not a public health problem, and one of their recent "Cultural" ministers numbered among her hobbies incinerating people with gasoline-filled tires.

 

Western civilization is in retreat where it isn't half-heartedly holding the line.

the demographic situation was quite different there, Europeans in Rhodesia being outnumbered 23:1 and in South Africa by 8:1, plus the majority was treated as second class at best, not the way Western Civilization is supposed to work these days

I'll admit though that SA&Rhodesia, along with the DDR & former USSR are perfect examples to argue against rapid democratization with a population which isn't ready for it.

[swerve]

Have you noticed that Western Civilization used to thrive in Rhodesia, and it's distinctly lacking in Zimbabwe? ...

 

I used to have a Zimbabwean (that's what she called herself, although it still said Rhodesia on the maps) girlfriend. She was at university over here because the racial quotas at Rhodesian universities meant there was a place for every white kid with the minimum grades, & most non-whites with the minimum grades (& she had a lot more than the minimum - bright girl) were kept out. Not my kind of "Western Civilization".

 

Rhodesia never had the same degree of apartheid as South Africa, but it was still a state based on systematic, legally-mandated, racial discrimination.

[Lyle, Bob]

But they had a rule of law, and protected the property and (admittedly, unequal) rights of the residents. As opposed to the current government which has un-systematic but ruthless racial discrimination based on greed, corruption, and a veneer of Marxist platitudes. Plus a lot of non-racial oppression, gangsterism and economic collapse. Rhodesia was trying to change, just about ten years behind the American South and a little patience would have gone a long way. Have you talked to your friend recently?

Edited November 11, 2007 by Lyle, Bob

[Lyle, Bob]

Double post

Edited November 11, 2007 by Lyle, Bob

[swerve]

But they had a rule of law, and protected the property and (admittedly, unequal) rights of the residents. As opposed to the current government which has un-systematic but ruthless racial discrimination based on greed, corruption, and a veneer of Marxist platitudes. Plus a lot of non-racial oppression, gangsterism and economic collapse. Rhodesia was trying to change, just about ten years behind the American South and a little patience would have gone a long way. Have you talked to your friend recently?

 

I'm not saying the current situation is better (it's not: it's a damn sight worse), but I can't stand the "Rhodesia was a shining beacon of civilisation" crap. It was not.

 

Rhodesia wasn't trying to change. What do you think UDI was all about? Like South Africa, it was trying as hard as it could not only to resist change, but to roll it back, until external pressure & internal failure (apartheid was bloody expensive & economically inefficient) forced it, unwillingly, to change. Unfortunately, I think that delay blew the chance of keeping change democratic & stable, by strengthening the revolutionaries at the expense of the reformists.

 

I sometimes try to imagine what South Africa & Rhodesia might be like if there had been a gradual integration of educated black (& Indian, & mixed-race) people into the upper levels of the economy & government, instead of them being forced out to the fringes to rebel.

[Jim Martin]

As noted: the economy functioned, there was respect for rule of law, respect for property rights, I'm betting everyone got fed (though perhaps not as much as they would have liked). I'm willing to bet that government ministers didn't consult with witch doctors. Gradual integration certainly would have been better, but instead Western Civilization ended support for the Rhodesian government, Western Culture knuckled under and surrendered, and now we have the shining example of enlightened governance which is Zimbabwe today. Hurrah. Now the people aren't "second class", they're just starving and being massacred.

[Cookie Monster]

Exactly. The West is incapable of defending its borders and interests, not due to a lack of technology and potential military power, but due to a lack of will to use such power and an overwhelming sense of guilt, self-loathing, and moral relativism. And that's why any of the old empires would consider us "Easy Meat". Because eventually another culture (eventually? Already happening) will threaten our civilization, and we won't fight back.

 

 

huh? I am sorry but I see it the other way around. I mean, take a look at North America before the Europeans came. It had hundreds of thriving cultures and now where are they today? Completely obliterated. Look at Australia- culture of aborgines. Completely obliterated. Conversion of Japan and S. Korea into westernized societies. Now look at Islam. It has been on the retreat from its heyday in its time. During its heyday, it spanned all the way across from Central Spain to Indonesia with several great empires that dwarf the European empires at that time. Look at today. Islam is only thriving in North Africa, Middle east, Central Asia, and some parts of Southeast Asia but there are no empires that would rival or compete with the western powers. In fact, other spheres, non Islam, are only emerging to compete with the Western powers but they have very long way to catch up.

 

No you guys are not "easy meat". You are only looking at the trees not the forest.

[Lyle, Bob]

This was not true in all units, but the Selous Scouts had white soldiers serving under black NCOs. A generation earlier neither British or American troops would have stood for that. Change was coming, it wasn't universally embraced, but it was coming. When you are twenty, waiting ten years, twenty years for change seems insufferable. But by 2007 I suspect your friend could have stood for a Parliament that meant something. I don't know what she is doing now, but I doubt she is happy in Zimbabwe.

 

Rhodesia wasn't a utopia, but it was a bit better (even for the underclass) than countries without even a Western veneer.

[Jim Martin]

huh? I am sorry but I see it the other way around. I mean, take a look at North America before the Europeans came. It had hundreds of thriving cultures and now where are they today? Completely obliterated. Look at Australia- culture of aborgines. Completely obliterated. Conversion of Japan and S. Korea into westernized societies. Now look at Islam. It has been on the retreat from its heyday in its time. During its heyday, it spanned all the way across from Central Spain to Indonesia with several great empires that dwarf the European empires at that time. Look at today. Islam is only thriving in North Africa, Middle east, Central Asia, and some parts of Southeast Asia but there are no empires that would rival or compete with the western powers. In fact, other spheres, non Islam, are only emerging to compete with the Western powers but they have very long way to catch up.

 

No you guys are not "easy meat". You are only looking at the trees not the forest.

 

 

All the aforementioned triumphs of the west happend before the 1950's. Since then the West has become afflicted with apathy, self-hatred, and a general unwillingness to draw lines or defend itself.

[Xavier]

All the aforementioned triumphs of the west happend before the 1950's. Since then the West has become afflicted with apathy, self-hatred, and a general unwillingness to draw lines or defend itself.

Aye, but I bet that would rapidly change when a sufficiently large and clear danger presents itself, African dictators turning their continent to shit and pathetic islamists are not a large danger to our way of life or national survival, and never wil be.

[capt_starlight]

Look at Australia- culture of aborgines. Completely obliterated.

 

Not quite - pronouncements of its death are wildly exaggerated......

[TheSilentType]

As noted: the economy functioned, there was respect for rule of law, respect for property rights, I'm betting everyone got fed (though perhaps not as much as they would have liked). I'm willing to bet that government ministers didn't consult with witch doctors. Gradual integration certainly would have been better, but instead Western Civilization ended support for the Rhodesian government, Western Culture knuckled under and surrendered, and now we have the shining example of enlightened governance which is Zimbabwe today. Hurrah. Now the people aren't "second class", they're just starving and being massacred.

 

The Rhodesian government that the west refused to support was not going to survive in the long-run no matter what the rest of the world had done. As someone else pointed out, take a look at the demographics. Obviously things could hardly have turned out worse than they did, but propping up Ian Smith and his band of cronies wasn't the answer either.

[Corinthian]

Exactly. The West is incapable of defending its borders and interests, not due to a lack of technology and potential military power, but due to a lack of will to use such power and an overwhelming sense of guilt, self-loathing, and moral relativism.

 

The "hearts and minds" policy sure works for Hamas et al. Alas, in a PC-world, even war has to be fought PC....

[Sebastian Balos]

I wouldn't rate terrorist organizations as such a serious threat, until they get nuclear weapons. Iran and N. Korea are much more dangerous with their missile and nuclear developements. On the other hand, much more dangerous in longer term is muslim and Arab immigration into western societies. A significant % of their population is becoming muslim, and although the majority does not make problems, it can pose a threat if terrorist organizations infiltrate there and they were/are.

I spoke to a guy from Italy and he said that in 20 years, half of schoolchildren are going to be muslims! When I was in Muenchen and Ulm last year, the streets were full of non-Germans. I hear the same is in France, particularly on the south - such as Marseilles and in UK.

However, without immigrants a significant % of industry will be stopped, with is unacceptable with Chinese industrial threat from the east. Europeans are just not good at making kids, so, I guess that in longer term, the face of Europe will be changed.

[SALADIN]

huh? I am sorry but I see it the other way around. I mean, take a look at North America before the Europeans came. It had hundreds of thriving cultures and now where are they today? Completely obliterated. Look at Australia- culture of aborgines. Completely obliterated. .

 

 

I know in fact only of one instance in history where the reverse happened i.e. where a european territory was taken over and the european culture of the area was subsumed.I am talking about Asia Minor in general and more specifically the city of Constantinopole.In fact i recall reading in the book "Infidels" by Andrew Wheatcroft about the legions of greek tourists who visit the various ruined greek cities in Asia Minor every summer and of some who are so overcome at the thought of lost glories that they weep openly....

 

As for Africa(Zimbabwe and South Africa particularly), are its problems either systemic, caused by incompetent and malicious individuals or something deeper such as culture?.If the first two they can be changed and there is hope .Look at India and China for instance, once they let go in large measure of the socialist inspired controlled economies and made systemic changes , they have done reasonably well (even though they have a long way to catch up with the West).In China's case in addition to systemic changes , some malicious individuals (Mao and his coterie ) had also left the scene in various ways.

 

If it is culture , then change unfortunately can come only slowly and over generations .

[swerve]

I know in fact only of one instance in history where the reverse happened i.e. where a european territory was taken over and the european culture of the area was subsumed.I am talking about Asia Minor in general and more specifically the city of Constantinopole.In fact i recall reading in the book "Infidels" by Andrew Wheatcroft about the legions of greek tourists who visit the various ruined greek cities in Asia Minor every summer and of some who are so overcome at the thought of lost glories that they weep openly....

...

 

The Greek culture of Libya & Egypt (never a majority in either, but locally a majority in major cities) was subsumed. Moslem Arab culture became dominant in Sicily, Malta, parts of Spain & Portugal (overall Arab minority, but definitely the dominant culture) for centuries, until the reconquest. Moslem Tatars took over formerly European Crimea, until the Russians took it & deported many of them. It's arguable that the culture of Tunisia & coastal Algeria was "European" before the Arab conquest.

 

BTW, those Greek cities in Asia Minor were mostly settled by Greeks, or the non-Greek locals Hellenised (as many were later Turkised), in historical times. The Lydians, Cilicians, Carians, Lycians etc., were not Greek.

[Lyle, Bob]

huh? I am sorry but I see it the other way around. I mean, take a look at North America before the Europeans came. It had hundreds of thriving cultures and now where are they today? Completely obliterated. Look at Australia- culture of aborgines. Completely obliterated. Conversion of Japan and S. Korea into westernized societies. Now look at Islam. It has been on the retreat from its heyday in its time. During its heyday, it spanned all the way across from Central Spain to Indonesia with several great empires that dwarf the European empires at that time. Look at today. Islam is only thriving in North Africa, Middle east, Central Asia, and some parts of Southeast Asia but there are no empires that would rival or compete with the western powers. In fact, other spheres, non Islam, are only emerging to compete with the Western powers but they have very long way to catch up.

 

No you guys are not "easy meat". You are only looking at the trees not the forest.

I feel obliged to bring up thne overworked cliche of the Roman Empire. It was taken down by cultural groups whose only parity was in military technology.

 

And the Islamicists want the Bomb more than anything.