WWIII: AFNORTH

[Jim Martin]

Konev --

 

The thing I find most interesting about this is the unusual allocation of equipment to the units. Is there reason to believe they are not accurate?

While no one actually believes that most units of any army had all their TO&E equipment actually on-hand, some of these allocations suggest that the best thing to do with Soviet TO&Es would be to throw them out!

 

Pat

 

Perhaps the best source for TO&E info would be the CFE reports?

[jakec]

Where was 77th Motor Rifle Division based before it got re-badged as Navy in 1989? Any ideas about equipment?

Edited November 9, 2007 by jakec

[konev]

Pat,

 

Yes, what is believed to be an accurate TOE set sometimes most of the time doesn't show up in actual equipment holdings. The detailed equipment holdings you do see come from the CFE Treaty exchange data. There are two groups of those. A.G. Lenski published the 1990 holdings and another RUssian site has the 2001 holdings.

 

The equipment holdings have to be accurate, at least for 1990. There is on set that I have not seen yet. Its the holdings by individual equipment. For example, every vehicle that the 3807th has would be listed separately and by serial/vehicle registration number.

 

I know a set exists somewhere. Reason: If you go to the US Defense Threat Reduction Agency, they have a file describing a history of the CFE inspections. A couple of pictures have soldiers holding extremely large books and checking each vehicle off. [Hint: They are even larger than the CFE database copy I have].

 

konev

[TonyE]

What's the difference between Homeguard and Local Defence? I'd not heard of the Local Defence before now.

 

How long would it (theoretically) take to mobilize the full strength of the Norwegian forces? Was this ever tried in practice?

Falken

 

Each Infantry Regiment raised a number of battalions, numbered from 1 and upwards. The total number of battalions would depend upon various factors, sometimes restricted by populationpattern in the more rural areas of the country.

 

Here is an example from my hometown regiment (IR9) in the mid-80s;

1st Bn - part of Brig V

2nd Bn - local defence battalion

3rd Bn - part of Brig V

4th Bn - local defence battalion

 

The other regiment in Western Norway was located at Voss (IR10) and had the following units:

1st Bn - local defence battalion

2nd Bn - part of Brig V

(+ a few independent local defence companies)

 

Most regiments would in wartime raise a field brigade, in some cases two regiments would raise one together (Brig V and 12). Only exeption was Brig Nord as it was a standing conscript unit. The battalions required for each brigade (3) would be drawn from those raised by the parental regiment(s) and classified as "Feltbataljoner" (fieldbattalions), this status usually ment that they were equipped along the newest TOE.

 

Those battalions not required to raise the brigades were classed as "Lokalvernsbataljoner" (local defence battalions) and were retained within the regimental recruitment district which would in wartime be called "Forsvarsdistrikt" (Defencedistrict). These battalions had slightly older equipment than the fieldbattalions (106mm RCL instead of TOW etc) and had less motorized assets. Their mission would be to provide the commander of each defencedistrict with a semi-mobile field force.

 

In addition to these battalions the commander would also have the homeguard units within his district under his command. The homeguard however was a totally static organization tasked with security and defence of important objects and areas, it thus had very little direct field value outside of this. The largest manouver element was the platoon, several of which made up an "Område" (area, company level), of which several in turn made up an "Avsnitt" (area detachment, battalion level).

 

 

The exact time required to mobilize the army i don`t know, but the homeguard would be up and running in full within two hours. Since the field brigades would be raised on a territorial basis though i`m certain that everything would be ready within a couple of days.

Edited November 9, 2007 by Tony Engelsen

[konev]

Jim,

 

I can't find t Lenski's equipment holdings and the Russian web I cannot access until 12:00 am ET.

 

What I do have is from Fes'kov's book:

 

Official title: 77th Motorized Rifle Division

Honorific title: 77th Guards Order of Lenin Chernigov Red Banner Order of Suvorov Motorized Rifle Division:

 

Location: Arkhangelsk, Leningrad MD

 

Assigned units:

215 Guards Motorized Rifle Regiment

218 Guards Motorized Rifle Regiment

481 Motorized Rifle Regiment

212 Guards Tank Regiment

51 Guards Self-Propelled Artiller Regiment

1027 Anti-Aircraft Missile Regiment

199 Missile Battalion (FROG-7/SS-21)

125 Independent Tank Battalion

794 Reconnaissance & Radio-Electronic Warfare Battalion

457 Guards Independent Signal Battalion

167 Guards Engineer-Sapper Battalion

 

Fes'kov shows it having 271 T-80s, 787 MT-LB, 62 2A65 and 72 D-30.

 

In 1989 it was transferred to the Navy and became the 77th Coastal Defense Division of the Red Banner Northern Fleet.

 

 

konev

[SCFalken]

Seems to me somebody been reading WAY to much Victor Suvorov.

 

I've never read any of Suvorov's stuff, but I keep running into people influenced by him, so it occasionally bleeds over.

 

 

Falken

[konev]

Falken,

 

Yeah, I'm influenced by him also. I tend to run away, very far and very fast.

 

He was the 1980's version of CURVE BALL.

 

konev

[SCFalken]

Anyone know if it was true that the 10th Mountain Division was earmarked for AFNORTH?

 

 

 

Falken

[Captain Hurricane]

FWIW you can download a PDF version of Feskov's book from the Soldat.ru site (in Russian - strange that

 

http://www.soldat.ru/files/f/000000d8.pdf

 

With a decent online translator its fairly readable, though translation of some of the more technical terms can be dodgy (e.g. Foxlingo translates motor rifle troopd as powered rifle troops).

 

Lots of other stuff in the files section too.

 

Cheers

[konev]

Captain,

 

Don't download that version. Its the rough draft for the final published product. There are a large number of units and text missing from the on-line version that the hard cover version. I know because I have it.

 

konev

[jakec]

If 77th MR Div had an SP artillery regiment, why is the equipment holding devoid of SP artillery, and stuffed with 2A65 - which would seem to be more likely as in artillery brigades and divisions.

[konev]

Jakec,

 

How much you want to bet there are several reasons, or a combination of them:

 

1) The book is confusing. In one portion it says it was SP; in another just towed. My guess is the later.

2) The Division Artillery Regiment was a mobilization only unit. To give the appearance of having artillery, a Regiment from Army artillery withdrawn from either eastern Europe or the eastern portion of the USSR and assigned there. Remamber, the 77th became a Navy unit to avoid a conflict with the CFE Treaty; that Army artillery would have probably violated it, so come into compliance, they transferred the artillery to the Division and transferred the Division to the Navy.

 

You have to remember, the late 1980's after the USSR accepted the fact it was going to sign the CFE Treaty a huge amount of equipment was being moved around in to comform with compliance before the Treaty was signed.

 

Some of the Rocket Divisions of the Strategic Rocket Force were the best-equipped Mechanized Infatry Divisions. Heck, even the KGB had its own Airborne Division (the 103rd).

 

konev

[SCFalken]

Militaryphotos dot n-e-t has a pictorial on the Norwegian HV (Home Guard). They seem to be very well equipped for a Reserve force (even by US standards).

 

Was this always the case, or a function of a the drawdown of the Regulars freeing up equipment?

 

 

Falken

[Captain Hurricane]

Captain,

 

Don't download that version. Its the rough draft for the final published product. There are a large number of units and text missing from the on-line version that the hard cover version. I know because I have it.

 

konev

 

Thanks for the heads up Konev, didn't realise that. The source was pointed out to me on another board.

 

While I'm here I have a quite a good article by Charles T Kamps on potential battles in Northern Norway published in "Strategy & Tactics No 94" as part of a feature accompanying a game called "Nordkapp". As it was written in 1983 its probably somewhat overtaken by events of the later 80's (e.g. talks about Canadian CAST brigade and USMC 2nd MAB as reinforcements but nothing on US 10th Mountain Div).

 

Cheers

[Animal Mother]

Militaryphotos dot n-e-t has a pictorial on the Norwegian HV (Home Guard). They seem to be very well equipped for a Reserve force (even by US standards).

 

Was this always the case, or a function of a the drawdown of the Regulars freeing up equipment?

 

http://www.mil.no/multimedia/archive/00091...e_17_91273a.jpg

 

Falken

 

My guess is that those Home Guardsmen are part of HV-016, which are their newish special operations unit. Can also be part of the rapid reaction force. The equipment has become better due to the cutbacks in the Regulars and due to the fact that they have become more important as the local military presence, due to the fact that local regular regiments are disbanded.

 

But of course their number has been reduced as well, from 70,000 to around 30,000. And with the new defence proposals, it will be cut down even more, along with everything else.

[Darth Stalin]

Well, Konev, that means I'll have to ask You quite often to check and recheck my data, as the only version of Feskov's book is the online one...

BTW: how would it be possible to get the printed "full" version from and what is the best, shortest and cheapest way of having that book shipped to Poland? Is that book still available in stores?