War in the Pacific

[DesertFox]

I was thinking about how an Earthquake damaged the Amagi to the point where it could not be completed as an Aircraft carrier.

 

Is there any reason why this could not have theoretically happened again and say caused the Zuikaku (for example) to suffer the same fate or at a less extreme level, delayed her completion for six to eight months.

 

Would that have delayed the Pearl harbor attack or cause the whole attack to be scrubbed? Would they have attacked with five carriers instead of six?

[KingSargent]

I was thinking about how an Earthquake damaged the Amagi to the point where it could not be completed as an Aircraft carrier.

 

Is there any reason why this could not have theoretically happened again and say caused the Zuikaku (for example) to suffer the same fate or at a less extreme level, delayed her completion for six to eight months.

 

Would that have delayed the Pearl harbor attack or cause the whole attack to be scrubbed? Would they have attacked with five carriers instead of six?

Considering that CarDiv 5's air groups were not allowed to target the ships (they hit - or missed - the airbases), I don't see where one missing would change much. Of course the Japaese couldn't know that.

 

Why don't we postulate the BIG ONE hitting California in 1940 and swamping the US Fleet in San Pedro? Besides, there would go Lockheed, Douglas, North American....

[Sardaukar]

One interesting "what if" is what would happen if Japan did not try Pearl Harbor but just conventional carrier operations covering PI invasion etc.

 

If USN had tried War Plan Orange, it'd have been devastating for US BB fleet, I think.

[KingSargent]

One interesting "what if" is what would happen if Japan did not try Pearl Harbor but just conventional carrier operations covering PI invasion etc.

 

If USN had tried War Plan Orange, it'd have been devastating for US BB fleet, I think.

Agreed. However the US was in no position to try WPO anyway without a long build-up of Fleet Train and transport assets.

 

Actually, PH gave the US an excuse not to try to intervene in the PI and SE Asia. One wonders what the effect on US morale would be if the US declared war to Protect European Colonialism (which is what the isolationists would say) and rotated on opposable digits while Japan overran SE Asia without WPO being implemented. Without PH to enrage the US and give FDR's administration an excuse for not going west immediately WW2 would definitely have been different.

[Marek Tucan]

Also PH forced US to depart from the battleline as battle winner even with the "BB admirals" because there simply weren't operational BB's in the area so the carriers HAD to be used as prime force...

[DesertFox]

Also PH forced US to depart from the battleline as battle winner even with the "BB admirals" because there simply weren't operational BB's in the area so the carriers HAD to be used as prime force...

 

With the number of carriers authorized compared to the number of battleships, wasn't in teh long term the battleship admirals already doomed?

[Marek Tucan]

With the number of carriers authorized compared to the number of battleships, wasn't in teh long term the battleship admirals already doomed?

 

The question would be how long the long term would be, Japanese attack disabling Pacific Fleet battle line and leaving just the carriers for the USN to play with initially indeed did much to convert the doubters

[DesertFox]

The question would be how long the long term would be, Japanese attack disabling Pacific Fleet battle line and leaving just the carriers for the USN to play with initially indeed did much to convert the doubters

 

"They did what with obsolete biplanes" should have already convinced them

[Brasidas]

"They did what with obsolete biplanes" should have already convinced them

 

I think you take institutional chauvanism too lightly. Especially considering the BB mafia was then in power in USN. The PH attacks just made the whole issue moot on an operational basis.

[Marek Tucan]

"They did what with obsolete biplanes" should have already convinced them

 

That was in some hellhole over the Big Pond and in the crazy war of the crazy Yuruppeans and most notably against Italians, nothing such can ever happen to our mighty USN, right? Right?

[DesertFox]

Did the United States know how much more advanced Japanese carrier aviator was over the British?

[Brasidas]

Did the United States know how much more advanced Japanese carrier aviator was over the British?

 

Maybe they didn't consider Swordfish going against Italian AA the deathknell of BB centric operations?

[KingSargent]

Did the United States know how much more advanced Japanese carrier aviator was over the British?

Japanese were bucktoothed nearsighted little squirts with thick glasses flying poor copies of obsolete US planes up until 0800 7/12/41. There were people who knew otherwise, but nobody listened to them.

[DesertFox]

Japanese were bucktoothed nearsighted little squirts with thick glasses flying poor copies of obsolete US planes up until 0800 7/12/41. There were people who knew otherwise, but nobody listened to them.

 

Did US Naval Aviators and their commanders know any better?

[KingSargent]

Did US Naval Aviators and their commanders know any better?

I don't believe so. They were a bigoted bunch.

[Sardaukar]

I thought Halsey at least had some differing thoughts.

[KingSargent]

I thought Halsey at least had some differing thoughts.

Before 7/12/41 he was much more worried about IJN submarines than IJN air.

[TRYTRY]

Orange was that US's fleet should do, not that US's fleet can do. War ships that orange need were much more than war ships fleet had.

[KingSargent]

Orange was that US's fleet should do, not that US's fleet can do. War ships that orange need were much more than war ships fleet had.

Then it is a friggin' FANTASY, not a "War Plan."

[Tyvar]

Then it is a friggin' FANTASY, not a "War Plan."

 

 

Perhaps it was a congressional lobbying tool? "we need X more ships, please fund"

[binder001]

 

The events that led to the attack on Pearl Harbor were polico-economic and were placed in motion before Yammamoto started counting how many decks he could lauch from. The Japanese were on a critical timetable - wait too long and the IJN is immobilized for lack of fuel!

[Detonable]

"They did what with obsolete biplanes" should have already convinced them

 

Two of the Italian battleships were fixed within 6 months. Only one was knocked out. Note the slow speed of the biplanes may have made them easier to recover.

 

At Gualdalcanal, the US carriers left at night and did not contribute to the night fighting. Japanese battleships threatened the landing, and American battleships ended the threat.

 

How would a fleet action have gone if the US BBs were available early in the war? Presumably the carriers would attack each other first.

[KingSargent]

Two of the Italian battleships were fixed within 6 months. Only one was knocked out. Note the slow speed of the biplanes may have made them easier to recover.

 

At Gualdalcanal, the US carriers left at night and did not contribute to the night fighting. Japanese battleships threatened the landing, and American battleships ended the threat.

No night air groups, although if Fletcher hadn't boogied before Savo Wasp's trained air group might have contributed to the night action, but that's doubtful considering the weather. By the time (November) the BBs got involved in surface combat the US was down to one damaged CV.

 

How would a fleet action have gone if the US BBs were available early in the war? Presumably the carriers would attack each other first.

That was what was expected and what happened in the wargames and Fleet Problems of the USN before 1941. The CVs performed MAD and then the battlelines met and danced.