WWI where England sits it out

[KingSargent]

IF the RN does not object to the HSF passing through the Straits of Dover, it would be very easy for them to bombard every port & sink every French ship in harbour on the Channel & Atlantic coasts. Any subsequent blockade could be maintained by light vessels. Civilian agents keeping watch on the Straits of Gibraltar should give plenty of warning if the main French fleet left the Med for the light vessels to scuttle back to the welcoming arms of the HSF steaming west.

You forget that the major French harbors were pretty well fortifed, and the anchorages were generally up rivers or in deep bays, not right on the coast (and a very inhospitable coast at that). In addition the French had numerous submarines and torpedo boats built specifically for harbor defence. The major ports would not be the walkover you seem to expect unless the French totaly screwed p the defence (from the record, a not unlikely occurrence).

 

As for maintaining a blockade with light forces, where are they to base, refuel, reprovision, etc? Most German TBs didn't have the endurance to stay at sea on blockade duty.

 

And how are "civilian agents" watching the Med ports supposed to communicate with Germany? There was a terrific spy mania in 1914, extremely amateurish on both sides (one German agent in Russia mailed in his final report and went off to answer his call-up into the Russian Army.... ), but communications for spies were neither easy, safe, nor reliable.

 

Practically speaking, Willie's Bathtub Fleet was pretty impotent more than two days sail from Germany. The ships with endurance were on the overseas stations relying on colliers to refuel.

[swerve]

You forget that the major French harbors were pretty well fortifed, and the anchorages were generally up rivers or in deep bays, not right on the coast (and a very inhospitable coast at that). In addition the French had numerous submarines and torpedo boats built specifically for harbor defence. The major ports would not be the walkover you seem to expect unless the French totaly screwed p the defence (from the record, a not unlikely occurrence).

 

As for maintaining a blockade with light forces, where are they to base, refuel, reprovision, etc? Most German TBs didn't have the endurance to stay at sea on blockade duty.

 

And how are "civilian agents" watching the Med ports supposed to communicate with Germany? There was a terrific spy mania in 1914, extremely amateurish on both sides (one German agent in Russia mailed in his final report and went off to answer his call-up into the Russian Army.... ), but communications for spies were neither easy, safe, nor reliable.

 

Practically speaking, Willie's Bathtub Fleet was pretty impotent more than two days sail from Germany. The ships with endurance were on the overseas stations relying on colliers to refuel.

 

True about some of the ports being inaccessible, though not all. But the HSF fleets guns were probably more than a match for the defensive batteries. Mines would have been (cf Dardanelles) the chief danger, I think. Endurance is one reason I don't think a full blockade of the Atlantic coast would be possible (BTW, by "light" I meant destroyers, cruisers etc, not TBs. I should have been clearer), but the Channel is close enough to Germany that it's feasible. It is, after all, within your two days sail from Germany.

 

Who said Med ports? I'm sure Germans trying to watch & report on Toulon or Marseille would have little success, but I specifically said the Straits of Gibraltar, where Germans (newspaper reporters?) could openly, legally, watch passing foreign ships, & from where they could openly, legally, send telegrams home (addressed to their papers) - as long as they refrained from reporting anything that was militarily sensitive to Spain or Britain. Remember, we're assuming British neutrality, so there are cable routes to Germany, bypassing France, which Germans can openly use.

 

But anyway, I don't think a neutral Britain would allow such a scenario, or that Germany would risk provoking Britain by attempting it. Naval warfare in the Channel would be too damaging to British trade, & for any country to initiate it would be seen as a hostile act. We know the Germans were aware of that, from their offer to keep the HSF at home.

[FlyingCanOpener]

and how would ze Germans blockade anything west of Le Havre/Cherbourg: Brest, Bordeaux, St-Nazaire & the ports in the med...

a bit risky to get your light cruisers and TB there through the channel isn't it and going round the British isles means you can't stay long with the few cruisers who have the necessary range

 

Depends on how the British declare the Channel. If they mine it and close it off, the French can't effectively hit the Germans in their back yard whilst the Germans still can with surface units, albeit more difficultly by going around the UK. If they (the British) just protect their interests in the Channel and watch as a bystander, the French simply can't protect their Atlantic side against the Germans from either harbour raids or a blockade. If they shift everything to blunt a German attack... the Austro-Hungarians are waiting for them in the Mediterranean.

[swerve]

... the anchorages were generally up rivers or in deep bays, not right on the coast (and a very inhospitable coast at that). ...

 

Applies to most of the Atlantic ports, but not the Channel ports, which were almost all easily shellable, the chief exception being Rouen - a big exception, I must admit.

[Argus]

The military impacts of the HSF being free to access the French coast is probably of less impact than the diplomatic ones.

 

Think of the political implications if the HSF just sailed up and lobbed a few bricks through the windows in Dunkirk (or wherever) - if there was indeed an understanding between London and Paris. The French are going to be (rightly) furious, le perfide Albion.

 

For the UK to withdraw from the practical side of their entante with France, they have to give the French time to readjust to the new situation or carry the can for stabbing them in the back.

 

So IMHO for anything like this to work the HSF must be kept on a leash in the west for all they can play in the Baltic.

 

shane

[KingSargent]

If they shift everything to blunt a German attack... the Austro-Hungarians are waiting for them in the Mediterranean.

All the French have to do is keep Otranto bottled up. Not that the A-H fleet is going to go adventuring, they lacked the range for that especially their small craft (which they had few of anyway).

The KuK was an Adriatic force, and it was built against Italy. They would not go sailing west past Italy to mess with France and leave their traditional enemies a free hand in the Adriatic. Even if Italy was "neutral," the temptation would be too great.

[glenn239]

the French simply can't protect their Atlantic side against the Germans from either harbour raids or a blockade.

 

The distance is too far for the HSF to have mounted an effective blockade of the French Atlantic coast. The strategic significance of bombardments of French coastal towns in tip-and-run raids was zero – certainly not worth the potential loss of major German warships to submarine or mines. IMO, the biggest threat the HSF posed to France with Britain neutral was to the overseas French empire.