The generalship of Mark Clark

[KingSargent]

Yep, all of four battalions of them in theater, the 504th PIR and the 509th PIB. At least they have a PFAB to support them!

Wasn't the British 2nd Parachute(Airborne?) Brigade in Italy at the time?

[Rich]

Wasn't the British 2nd Parachute(Airborne?) Brigade in Italy at the time?

 

Ooops! You're right, I forgot about them. Well, seven battalions then. Almost a divisions worth. Gee, they could have dropped them in the Alban hills as part of SHINGLE!

[capt_starlight]

Ooops! You're right, I forgot about them. Well, seven battalions then. Almost a divisions worth. Gee, they could have dropped them in the Alban hills as part of SHINGLE!

 

But what air drop and/or glider capacity (including towing aircraft) was available "in theatre" ? Where could it have been obtained from without alerting the Germans (through its movement) or denuding other planned training and operations ?

[Marek Tucan]

But what air drop and/or glider capacity (including towing aircraft) was available "in theatre" ? Where could it have been obtained from without alerting the Germans (through its movement) or denuding other planned training and operations ?

 

 

Contact Kesselring and rent coupla Ju-52's

[JWB]

RETAC21 Posted Sun 28 Oct 2007 2054

I thought all this revolved around January 1944

You will note I have highlighted dates that don't exactly match the definition of "January 1944"...

 

The definitions don't match because I was in a hurry and couldn't completely finish. If we look at the progress of the Italian campaign we will see that the Gustav line wasn't broken until May 1944. If the Gustav Line was broken in mid jan 1944 like it should have been then the Italian campaign would have been advanced by 5 months. Instead of the Allied drive stalling in Autumn 1944 then coming to a halt in winter 1944 it would have instead come to a halt in the vicinty of the "Ghengis Khan Line " sometime in May 1944. After some R&R&R&R.... the Allied advance would have started again in sometime in June 1944. Perhaps soon enough to cross the Po before NEPTUNE? After crossing the Po both armies would continue pursuing the the Germans grinding them down into a rump force. In August B8A would reach Trieste, Gorizia, with US5A Verona, Brezia in Sept 1944. From there the Brits would push into Austria and the Yanks would start scaling the Alps.

 

As for airborne troops, this could only have 2 interpretations, that you intend to drop them in mountain passes (with an obvious disregard for broken arms, legs and skulls)

Airbone unti would be deployed into some of the many mountain valleys then fight their way back to friendly lines against minimal opposition.

 

 

 

Rich Posted Sun 28 Oct 2007 2358

22 January:

 

Between the mouth of the Astura to Terracina:

Pz.Aufkl.Abtl. 129 (29 Pz.Gren.Div.)

Alarmeinheiten (small infantry contingents and seconded artillerymen manning Italian coast artillery positions);

 

Preparing to counterattack on the Garigliano under command of 10 AOK:

I Fsch.Jg. Korps with -

29 Pz.Gren.Div. (- Aufkl.Abtl. 129, II/Pz.Gren.Rgt. 71, 9/Art.Rgt. 29, and 2/Pz.Pi.Kp.)

90 Pz.Gren Div. (- KG von Bohr, II/Pz.Gren.Rgt. 200, III/Pz.Art.Rgt. 190 and FEB 190, which was deployed from Tarquinia to Rome)

 

If those divisions could have reacted in time they would have been pulled away from the Garigliano making it possible for BX Corps to break through.

[Junior FO]

...

Edited September 19, 2024 by Junior FO

[Rich]

If those divisions could have reacted in time they would have been pulled away from the Garigliano making it possible for BX Corps to break through.

 

Sorry, but again no, neither were committed against X Corps, possibly the best result of SHINGLE was that their attack was cancelled and thus X Corps was able to hang onto their bridgehead across the Garigliano, which ultimately became the springboard for II Corps operations in DIADEM.

[Marek Tucan]

Airbone unti would be deployed into some of the many mountain valleys then fight their way back to friendly lines against minimal opposition.

 

If you want to trump 1st Para's losses in Arnhem, why don't you go for sure shot and don't frop the paratroopers over the Atlantic?

From what I gather, in mountains, even minimal opposition is often too much even against large numerically superior enemy. And as Arnhem proved, even armored cars or halftracks are major oppositions for paratroops.

[RETAC21]

The definitions don't match because I was in a hurry and couldn't completely finish. If we look at the progress of the Italian campaign we will see that the Gustav line wasn't broken until May 1944. If the Gustav Line was broken in mid jan 1944 like it should have been then the Italian campaign would have been advanced by 5 months. Instead of the Allied drive stalling in Autumn 1944 then coming to a halt in winter 1944 it would have instead come to a halt in the vicinty of the "Ghengis Khan Line " sometime in May 1944. After some R&R&R&R.... the Allied advance would have started again in sometime in June 1944. Perhaps soon enough to cross the Po before NEPTUNE? After crossing the Po both armies would continue pursuing the the Germans grinding them down into a rump force. In August B8A would reach Trieste, Gorizia, with US5A Verona, Brezia in Sept 1944. From there the Brits would push into Austria and the Yanks would start scaling the Alps.

 

The para thing already comented, let me say about this paragraph: ...or not. An advance up the Italian peninsula Jan. to May 1944 would not have been the "walk in the park" that you think the summer advance was for the simple reason that forces in France would remain unengaged by Overlord and available for deployment to Italy, so the advance could stop just as well beyond Rome and remain stalled there in the remaining months of winter (cold) and spring (rain).

[JWB]

The rest aside the above is totally beyond this world. I take it you've never been active or spent much time in the Alps.

Mountain ranges are mountain ranges. The forces of techtonics and geology are the same everywhere on Earth. There is nothing truly special or unique about any of them. The Eatern Alps north of Trieste are barely worse than the Apps at their worst. In fact the mountains between Trieste and Austria aren't even as rugged as the High Sierras. I have hiked the High Sierras. The mountains between Austria and Trieste? I am not impressed.

[JWB]

Sorry, but again no, neither were committed against X Corps, possibly the best result of SHINGLE was that their attack was cancelled and thus X Corps was able to hang onto their bridgehead across the Garigliano, which ultimately became the springboard for II Corps operations in DIADEM.

90 PzGR and 29PvGR were deployed to add stability and provide backbone to prevent 94 ID from being overrun by BX Corps. It does not matter if they were actually committed to battle. Their existence next to 04 ID prevented that division from folding. If those two divisions were used in a counterattack by moving to the coast then BX Corps would have won the battle.

[JWB]

The para thing already comented, let me say about this paragraph: ...or not. An advance up the Italian peninsula Jan. to May 1944 would not have been the "walk in the park" that you think the summer advance was for the simple reason that forces in France would remain unengaged by Overlord and available for deployment to Italy, so the advance could stop just as well beyond Rome and remain stalled there in the remaining months of winter (cold) and spring (rain).

I never claimed a walk in the park.

[Junior FO]

...

Edited September 19, 2024 by Junior FO

[zraver]

I never claimed a walk in the park.

 

No, just wholesale slaughter of elite infantry, rescue forces and the air transport crews.

 

Mountains are crucial becuase of the lack of roads and the fact that the defenders get enfilade fire over the choke points caused by the lack of roads and maneuver room. On top of these built in defensive advantage your going to attack them with light infantry who lacks artillery support and is even limited on mortar support. And forget air dropped resupply, the C-47's have to come in fairly low in order to make sure the supplies don't go to the enemy. Do you remember Husky, imagine the fate of those brave pilots trying to fly through 20mm and 37mm fire in lumbering C-47's. What your doing is basically dropping them into a bowl and cutting off, and you think this is a good thing?

 

Plus trying to rescue them means your other ground troops hav eto oush harder and faster with less preparation which means more men killed for naught.

[JWB]

Allied casualties fighting their way through the East Alps would be lower than Allied casualties in France from June 6 through July 30 1944. The entire Italian Campaign saw the combined Allied casualty totals exceed 300,000. That was a campaign lasting a year and a half in terrain quite similar to the East Alps. The August 1944 northern push by the Allies (B8A) would be against an almost destroyed German force vastly smaller than the one facing the Allies in France and much weaker than the one that had fought, and lost, the Italian campaign itself.

[KingSargent]

Allied casualties fighting their way through the East Alps would be lower than Allied casualties in France from June 6 through July 30 1944.

That would not be true if the forces defending Normandy during that period were defending Italy.

 

The entire Italian Campaign saw the combined Allied casualty totals exceed 300,000.

Because there weren't a lot more there to lose. Check the losses as a percentage of the forces committed and see what you come up with. It is not a coincidence that three of the five US divisions that suffered the highest casualties (averaging 176%) in WW2 fought in Italy.

 

That was a campaign lasting a year and a half in terrain quite similar to the East Alps. The August 1944 northern push by the Allies (B8A) would be against an almost destroyed German force vastly smaller than the one facing the Allies in France and much weaker than the one that had fought, and lost, the Italian campaign itself.

You prove our point. The opposition in Northern Italy was weaker precisely because troops that could have stalled Allied advances for months (even if everything that went to France was shoehorned into Italy) were being used on the other fronts.

[swerve]

And the terrain isn't that similar. The Eastern Alps vary from worse than anything in the Appenines (fom the Swiss border to the Yugoslavian border) to similar to the worst territory the Allies had to fight over en route to Northern Italy. The relatively (stress that relatively!) gentle terrain near the coast, heading for Trieste, is a narrow strip compared to what there is in the peninsula.

 

I've travelled over much of Italy north of Pompeii, & I can't accept that fighting up the peninsula could be compared to fighting over the Alps. The only route this non-expert can see as feasible is east through Slovenia, & that ain't at all easy.

Edited October 31, 2007 by swerve

[JWB]

"Allied casualties fighting their way through the East Alps would be lower than Allied casualties in France from June 6 through July 30 1944."

 

That would not be true if the forces defending Normandy during that period were defending Italy.

 

If Hitler redeployed enough troops to actually block the entire east Alps then he wouldn't have enough force in France to prevent the Allies from reaching Aachen in mid Aug 1944 or succeeding in taking the Hurtgenwald. There would have been little hedgerow fighting and the Allies would have reached Paris in mid July. Probably Hitler wouldn't have even had enough troops to stop Market Garden. That would force Hitler pull out much if not most of the divisions blocking the Allies in the Alps and sent those divisions to the west. Hitler would be in a true three front war with only enough force to on about 1 1/2 fronts.

 

"The entire Italian Campaign saw the combined Allied casualty totals exceed 300,000. "

 

Because there weren't a lot more there to lose. Check the losses as a percentage of the forces committed and see what you come up with. It is not a coincidence that three of the five US divisions that suffered the highest casualties (averaging 176%) in WW2 fought in Italy.

 

How many Allied casualties in France from June 6 1944 to mid Aug 25 1944?

 

My point is the Western Allies had the opportunity to shorten the war by investing more effort into the Italian campaign. DRAGOON was a mistake because it pushed more Allied force into a theatre that was choked to begin with. It should have gone through la Spezia up the paved roads through the Apps then east to the Adriatic and ultimately cut off Zudheer. Hitler would have been left with little more than a handfull of border guards left with which to guard the passes into Germany and Austria.

[JWB]

And the terrain isn't that similar. The Eastern Alps vary from worse than anything in the Appenines (fom the Swiss border to the Yugoslavian border) to similar to the worst territory the Allies had to fight over en route to Northern Italy. The relatively (stress that relatively!) gentle terrain near the coast, heading for Trieste, is a narrow strip compared to what there is in the peninsula.

 

I've travelled over much of Italy north of Pompeii, & I can't accept that fighting up the peninsula could be compared to fighting over the Alps. The only route this non-expert can see as feasible is east through Slovenia, & that ain't at all easy.

The hard part of mountain warfare is not the elevation of the mountains it is the slope angle of the rise to the peak. Angles less than 45 degrees are very easy to climb. Angles more vertical than this run into the law of static friction. Even with a boot on clean granite the feet will slip like tyres on oily tarmac. Those slopes require trained mountaineers like 10th MD. http://biggreen65.tripod.com/carnivail/id170.html The flatter slopes can be ascended by ordinary infantry. So it just becomes a matter of deploying the units to their proper places.

[JWB]

Does anyone here know of cross attaching artillery batallions from one corps to another during the month of Jan 1944 in Italy? That is, were any arty bats transfered from say USII Corps and loaned to BX Corps?

[Junior FO]

...

Edited September 19, 2024 by Junior FO

[BillB]

The hard part of mountain warfare is not the elevation of the mountains it is the slope angle of the rise to the peak. Angles less than 45 degrees are very easy to climb. Angles more vertical than this run into the law of static friction. Even with a boot on clean granite the feet will slip like tyres on oily tarmac. Those slopes require trained mountaineers like 10th MD. http://biggreen65.tripod.com/carnivail/id170.html The flatter slopes can be ascended by ordinary infantry. So it just becomes a matter of deploying the units to their proper places.

Funny that, because I saw some guys from 10 Mountain in Afghan on the TV a bit back that said they were having a hard time becaue "they didn't do mountains", and IIRC those in the know on this Grating Sight pointed out that despite the title they were really only a light infantry outfit. And as a matter of interest, whereabouts on the "slope angle" were the airborne guys supposed to locate their DZs/LZs?

 

BillB

[BillB]

The fact that you reduce Mountain Warfare to "slope angle" pretty much speaks for itself.

What do you know about it? You only live in Switzerland...

 

BillB

[baboon6]

Funny that, because I saw some guys from 10 Mountain in Afghan on the TV a bit back that said they were having a hard time becaue "they didn't do mountains", and IIRC those in the know on this Grating Sight pointed out that despite the title they were really only a light infantry outfit. And as a matter of interest, whereabouts on the "slope angle" were the airborne guys supposed to locate their DZs/LZs?

 

BillB

 

To be fair in WW2 10th MD were actually trained as a mountain division. Still the argument of invading Austria via Italy is silly at best.

[BillB]

To be fair in WW2 10th MD were actually trained as a mountain division. Still the argument of invading Austria via Italy is silly at best.

Sorry, I didn't get past the opening page of the link because I was driven off by the corny music.

 

BillB