Various '60s era US organization/equipment questions

[Hellfish6]

Got some questions for you guys

 

With regards to the pentomic battlegroups, how were the battlegroups numbered? Like A Co/3rd BG/5th Infantry Division? Some other way?

 

I'm also trying to figure out what kinds of tanks the Marines had around '62. I know the M103 and M67, but I've seen some scant references to M41s, though the tank battalions usually show up as having one HHC with 2 M48s and a 9-vehicle M67 platoon, two M48 companies and an M103 company. Don't see where the M41s fit in. Also, were the M48s A1s or A2s? Both? When did the Marines get rid of their M47s? Did the Marines have any kind of SP artillery (I know they had M109s and M110s later on).

 

Thanks... I'll probably have more questions later.

[Old Tanker]

Got some questions for you guys

 

With regards to the pentomic battlegroups, how were the battlegroups numbered? Like A Co/3rd BG/5th Infantry Division? Some other way?

Using the historic inf. reg't system existing in th Army. Not numeric to the divsion but with historic ties to the div. most of the time.

I served in A co. 2nd bn. 69th Armor 2nd Inf Div.

A battlegroup was a package of inf,tk,arty , eng plus whatever support plugged in.

Going back a million years ago , I believe the 2nd ID had 1&2 9th. inf. bn. 1&2 23rd inf. bn. and 1 38th inf. bn. as it's core infantry units or some similar type scheme.

[Richard Lindquist]

It was the advent of the Pentomic Division in the fifties which caused the US Army to go to the 5th of the 4th 0r 5/4 type designations. Prior to that, the infantry regiments were complete in the Infantry and Airborne Divisions and in the ACRs. Tanks, Armored infantry, Artillery, and Air Defense were seoarate numbered battalions. With the breakup of the Infantry Regiments, the Army was faced with doing it simply (248th Infantry Battle Group) or doing it complicated. Guess which one they chose??

 

For the active (and reserve) units they slected 164 regimental designations of "distinguished lineage" to be perpetuated and the rest fell by the wayside. These regiments were as follows:

 

Airborne Infantry--9 regiments

Armored Infantry--10 regiments

Leg infantry--36 regiments

Cavalry and Armor--27 regiments

Field Artillery--57 regiments

Air Defense Artillery--24 regiments

Special Forces--1 regiment

 

All battle groups, battalions, and seperate companies/troops/batteries of infantry, armor, artillery, and air defense were assigned to one of these "distinguished lineage" regiments.

 

Later the national guard went through the same squirrel drill when they went pentomic.

 

 

 

Later when many infantry divisions "meched up" the leg infantry regiments had mech battalions and the "armored infantry" regiments mech battalions were in the armored divisions.

[Hellfish6]

Hahaha... this just kinda complicates it all. Thanks guys - does anyone happen to know where I could get a list of divisions and their subordinate units? I've got access to the various WWII OOBs and regimental lineages and could probably extrapolate from them, but it'd probably be easier if there was a single authoritative list.

 

Also, any info about the Marine Corps M41s?

[Richard Lindquist]

Hahaha... this just kinda complicates it all. Thanks guys - does anyone happen to know where I could get a list of divisions and their subordinate units? I've got access to the various WWII OOBs and regimental lineages and could probably extrapolate from them, but it'd probably be easier if there was a single authoritative list.

 

Also, any info about the Marine Corps M41s?

 

 

The Center for Military History published "Lineage Books" for Infantry, Cavalry, Field Artillery, and Air Defense Artillery. The Infantry Book was published in 1972 and runs through the Vietnam era (may have been updated). Army libraries often had them and you may be able to get them through interlibrary loan. You have to go through regiment by regiment and track each component part as it changed from a company to a battle group to a battalion and shifted from one division to another and was activated and deactivated.

[Hellfish6]

My dad has those books, and coincidentally I'm going back to Chicago in about five hours. Last I looked through them, I don't remember them compiling a list of divisions with their subordinate battalions/regiments (though if you look up any given regiment, they'll usually tell you what division it was assigned to).

[Richard Lindquist]

My dad has those books, and coincidentally I'm going back to Chicago in about five hours. Last I looked through them, I don't remember them compiling a list of divisions with their subordinate battalions/regiments (though if you look up any given regiment, they'll usually tell you what division it was assigned to).

 

Yes, you have to go through regiment by regiment to find the components of a division.

 

For Vietnam and WWII you have Stanton.

[Ken Estes]

Hellfish, you mention both M41 and M47 in the USMC. The M41 never saw such service. The M47 was in service in 1952, remaining in service until 1959 in 3d Tank Battalion, the others having converted to the M48 in 1955. I do not know how many went into USMCR service, though.

 

There is no true SP arty in the USMC until post Korea, with the M53 155mm and M55 8-inch [look out!]. These morph into M109, M107, M110 in Vietnam. Only the M109s are left in the 1980s however, in 5/10, gone by the 90s.

[Hellfish6]

Ah, thanks Ken!

[Hellfish6]

Hellfish, you mention both M41 and M47 in the USMC. The M41 never saw such service. The M47 was in service in 1952, remaining in service until 1959 in 3d Tank Battalion, the others having converted to the M48 in 1955. I do not know how many went into USMCR service, though.

 

There is no true SP arty in the USMC until post Korea, with the M53 155mm and M55 8-inch [look out!]. These morph into M109, M107, M110 in Vietnam. Only the M109s are left in the 1980s however, in 5/10, gone by the 90s.

 

I bought "Marines Under Armor" from Amazon on Friday and I knew the author's name sounded familiar to me... hahahaha. Thanks for writing the book - it just arrived and looks good so far!

[Guest aevans]

There is no true SP arty in the USMC until post Korea, with the M53 155mm and M55 8-inch [look out!]. These morph into M109, M107, M110 in Vietnam. Only the M109s are left in the 1980s however, in 5/10, gone by the 90s.

 

5/11 (in Twentynine Palms, CA) had M109s and M110s at least as late as 1987.

[CV9030FIN]

I bought "Marines Under Armor" from Amazon on Friday and I knew the author's name sounded familiar to me... hahahaha. Thanks for writing the book - it just arrived and looks good so far!

 

OT but i ordered that one from Amazon...I just hope that they can deliver it here before x-mas!