Assessor Posted September 28, 2007 Posted September 28, 2007 Let’s assume for the purposes of this discussion that a basic training programme has been agreed that produces basically trained recruits that are “fit for purpose”. A proportion of those recruits will then go on and be trained to be something other than infantry: gunners, drivers, cooks, clerks etc. In the present climate, these people get caught up in firefights more regularly than was the. Therefore they absolutely need to have sufficient infantry training, and enough time to keep current. But what effect does this have? Example: if a clerk spends all his time doing clerical work, then that counts as one “clerk day”. However, his infantry training takes up part of that time, so each day he is able to do less than one “clerk day”. In this example, let’s assume he spends 20% of his time combat training, so one day equals 80% of a “clerk day”. Therefore if the unit has four “clerk days” of clerical work to do per day, it actually needs five clerks to do it. In the “real world” what are these proportions assumed to be? How much time does it require to keep the “non-infantry” soldiers usefully capable? How much time is actually made available to do it? Please note, I have nothing against clerks – but someone has to be the example!
EchoFiveMike Posted September 28, 2007 Posted September 28, 2007 Well, for US forces, simply delete all the EO/sensitivity/cultural awareness/close order drill/uniform spit shine inspection bullshit and you have all the time you'll need right there. S/F....Ken M
Assessor Posted September 28, 2007 Author Posted September 28, 2007 Fair enough! But to what extent is the "close order drill/uniform spit shine inspection bullshit" needed to keep soldiers as soldiers, and not members of an armed mob?
EchoFiveMike Posted September 28, 2007 Posted September 28, 2007 Fair enough! But to what extent is the "close order drill/uniform spit shine inspection bullshit" needed to keep soldiers as soldiers, and not members of an armed mob? Well, you can have a SL/Plt Sgt uniform inspection at the morning formation that should take all of 5 minutes every once in a while and you can march the troops to the chow hall from there if you like. If that's what it takes to keep your troops aware that they're in the military, all your recruiters need to be shot. S/F.....Ken M
Guest JamesG123 Posted September 28, 2007 Posted September 28, 2007 The US Army has a block of time once a week ("SGT's time") where basic soldering skills classes are supposed to be given by NCOs.
Assessor Posted September 28, 2007 Author Posted September 28, 2007 Phew! I was beginning to think we'd solved this one in one go! Sorry EchoFiveMike, I couldn't just let you cut the Gordian knot! I was taught that the BS, beasting and bellowing was what made an army an army, as opposed to a better-trained street gang. Still, it certainly is an area that COULD be looked at. When it's life or death (as it is) then ANYTHING can go on the table.
Gunguy Posted September 29, 2007 Posted September 29, 2007 Well, you can have a SL/Plt Sgt uniform inspection at the morning formation that should take all of 5 minutes every once in a while and you can march the troops to the chow hall from there if you like. If that's what it takes to keep your troops aware that they're in the military, all your recruiters need to be shot. S/F.....Ken M Ken, your right. Stop all the peacetime military BS and you have so much extra time for weapons training and other combat training, everyone could have every weekend off and still be trained well. The military excels at BS time wasting stuff. Trying to change it is like trying to move a mountain......
Old Tanker Posted September 29, 2007 Posted September 29, 2007 Along this line of thought I noticed the 2/69th Armor was being used as COIN inf. in Iraq.A 2/69 officer was briefing Bush on their AO on his recent trip.How do they break down the tank platoon for these operations ?Since you start with 16 members incl. an LT , plt. sgt. and 2 TCs , this leaves 12 indians with 4 chiefs so how do you deploy tactically ?
Guest JamesG123 Posted September 29, 2007 Posted September 29, 2007 They (and everyone else regardless of their "offical" structure) are organized and operate pretty as light Cav. 4 or 5 men to a humvee. In that, tank companies have an advantage in that they can fall right in on their trucks without any modifications where an infantry company has to get all sliced up and rearranged in order to do their mannning. Tactically, the driver and gunner stay with the truck, which give you the TC and one or two dismounts per vehicle. Trying not to get to deep into TTPs for obvious reasons, but while you don't have near the manpower of a true infantry platoon (or even squad), its enough bodies to provide local secuity for doing TCPs, cordon and seearch, and of course the always popular route recon (ie: go down the road and get blown up).
Assessor Posted September 29, 2007 Author Posted September 29, 2007 During the Troubles, we had to task gunners as infantry, to cover an "infantry gap". Differs in detail, not substance. OK, let me rephrase my original question. In order for me to deploy a battery of artillery or an armoured squadron as infantry, how much time to they need to be infantry and not gunners/ tankers? What effect does it have on the day you go back to "conventional" warfare and need them as gunners / tankers? I ask this on the grounds that:a) there are only 24 hours in the day and no-one, not even a senior NCO can change that; with a few exceptions, no-one is good at everything;c) there's no such thing as a free lunch - it all has a cost and consequence.
Tzefa Posted September 30, 2007 Posted September 30, 2007 Lesson learned the hard way - being active in COIN too much actually decreases wartime combat skills. You become some type of a SWAT police officer and its not the same as being a soldier. When you deploy tankers or artillerymen as infantry in COIN soon enough you'll start noticing they begin to suck at artillery or tanking.
Kenneth P. Katz Posted September 30, 2007 Posted September 30, 2007 My experience (to be fair, in peacetime) was the preparing for fighting wars was done on a time-available basis after the quota of high priority "BS time wasting stuff" was completed. The military excels at BS time wasting stuff.
Kenneth P. Katz Posted September 30, 2007 Posted September 30, 2007 How would you know this? You have already confessed to being a supermodel. Lesson learned the hard way - being active in COIN too much actually decreases wartime combat skills. You become some type of a SWAT police officer and its not the same as being a soldier. When you deploy tankers or artillerymen as infantry in COIN soon enough you'll start noticing they begin to suck at artillery or tanking.
Tzefa Posted October 1, 2007 Posted October 1, 2007 (edited) How would you know this? You have already confessed to being a supermodel. I'm from Israel, remember? Where even supermodels serve in the army (edited for the link cause the pics didn't open for some reason). Edited October 1, 2007 by Tzefa
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