The Britsh Supporting the confederates

[Old Tanker]

It's not a phenonmemon particular to the ACW, which had a lower desertion rate than the Mexican War (remember, in the course of a week 60% of one US field force deserted), and ISTR less than the 1812 war.

 

Doing family history research my sister found relatives who signed up for 3-4 units probably to collect the signing bonus each time , this was for the ARW.

She also found two instances of Union soldiers staying and marrying in the South after being listed KIA in the war. The internet has led to many blanks being filled in pertaining to family histories and bigamy being revealed during wartime.

[JWB]

It's not a phenonmemon particular to the ACW, which had a lower desertion rate than the Mexican War (remember, in the course of a week 60% of one US field force deserted), and ISTR less than the 1812 war.

Those are different wars with different circumstances. In the MW the US was invading another country. In the second case I must ask which campaign?

[Gabe]

It's not a phenonmemon particular to the ACW, which had a lower desertion rate than the Mexican War (remember, in the course of a week 60% of one US field force deserted), and ISTR less than the 1812 war.

 

Not only that but a group of Irish deserters join the Mexican side. The San Patricio Brigade.

[Grant Whitley]

Not only that but a group of Irish deserters join the Mexican side. The San Patricio Brigade.

 

IIRC they weren't actually deserters(although they were treated as such when Chapultepec fell), just disaffected Catholics who had at some point lived in the US; many weren't even born here.

[KingSargent]

BTW Another useful resource is the New York Times, which allows searches of its archives, some of my ("fantasy") data can be found reproduced there... (I would have mentioned it earlier, but I only found the resource two days ago).

OhmiGawd, you are using the NYT for serious research?!!

 

Get thee behind me, Satan!!

 

No wonder your fantasy data is fantasy if you got it from the Times....

[KingSargent]

IIRC they weren't actually deserters(although they were treated as such when Chapultepec fell), just disaffected Catholics who had at some point lived in the US; many weren't even born here.

You are more up on Hispanic-American history than I, but didn't the San Patricios (Irish-born or not) GET to Mexico via enlistment in the US Army*? Immigrant soldiers were nothing new in the US Army. My understanding has been that the Irish (who had to put up with a lot of Anti-Catholic bigotry in the US) went to join their Mexican co-religionists.

 

*And how else would an Irish immigrant get to Mexico?

[Rich]

OhmiGawd, you are using the NYT for serious research?!!

 

Get thee behind me, Satan!!

 

No wonder your fantasy data is fantasy if you got it from the Times....

 

Actually King, contemporary newspaper articles can be a good source for certain information, for example casualty rosters were routinely reproduced in newspapers of the time and are a primary source for such data. Ship sailings and arrivals are another, as are various financial data, governmental statements, and editorial and public opinion. However, given that it does pay to be aware of the possible limitations and biases in such sources.

[Guest aevans]

However, given that it does pay to be aware of the possible limitations and biases in such sources.

 

How do you feel about Carol Reardon's assertion that much of the mythos of Pickett's Charge was a creation of the Richmond papers in the immediate aftermath?

Edited October 15, 2007 by aevans

[Rich]

How do you feel about Carol Reardon's assertion that much of the mythos of Pickett's Charge was a creation of the Richmond papers in the immediate aftermath?

 

Certainly the mythos that it was Pickett's Charge appears to be a newspaper creation stemming from the immediate aftermath of the battle. But the mythos that it was the turning point of the battle and war seems to be very much ex post facto, so much so that photographic coverage of the area of the charge is virtually ignored until well into the 1880s.

[DesertFox]

How about changing the President of Confederation?

[Guest aevans]

How about changing the President of Confederation?

 

Who do you make president, and what does he do different?

[DesertFox]

Who do you make president, and what does he do different?

 

My understanding is that Davis was not much of a negotiator

[KingSargent]

Actually King, contemporary newspaper articles can be a good source for certain information, for example casualty rosters were routinely reproduced in newspapers of the time and are a primary source for such data. Ship sailings and arrivals are another, as are various financial data, governmental statements, and editorial and public opinion. However, given that it does pay to be aware of the possible limitations and biases in such sources.

Oh right, but that is not the NYT reporting, it is just printing info they get from a gov't agency. Let the Times staff pee in it and any vestige of reliability is lost -- especially if they start "analyzing" the government statements.

 

"Editorial opinion" is just agenda driven trash, and "public opinion" is someone who knows nothing explaining it to people who know less. They are informative to determine what people THOUGHT was happening and what political decisions might have been made on the basis of Government By Public Opinion Poll.

 

I've spent enough time in newspaper archives to observe the agendas and biases*, and I have never seen a report on any incident I was involved in (including my wedding announcement) that bore much relationship to what I observed.

 

*Especially in US Colonial-era papers, which are REALLY beyond the Pale.

[KingSargent]

My understanding is that Davis was not much of a negotiator

He didn't handle the State governors well either.

[DesertFox]

He didn't handle the State governors well either.

 

I don't know if there were any other potential candidates for Confederate President......

[Grant Whitley]

You are more up on Hispanic-American history than I, but didn't the San Patricios (Irish-born or not) GET to Mexico via enlistment in the US Army*? Immigrant soldiers were nothing new in the US Army. My understanding has been that the Irish (who had to put up with a lot of Anti-Catholic bigotry in the US) went to join their Mexican co-religionists.

 

*And how else would an Irish immigrant get to Mexico?

 

I think I have something that goes into more detail kicking around. I will say that there was a long history of the Irish emigrating to the Spanish speaking world, so I don't see it as being odd on the face of it.

[KingSargent]

I think I have something that goes into more detail kicking around. I will say that there was a long history of the Irish emigrating to the Spanish speaking world, so I don't see it as being odd on the face of it.

But Irish emigrating to the US, THEN going to Spanish America? Ie, the 'disaffected' Irish you mentioned above?

 

Somehow I doubt that Almirante O'Connell (or his ancestors) took a side trip to North America.

[swerve]

...

 

*And how else would an Irish immigrant get to Mexico?

 

By ship?

 

Probably not a lot of direct ships (quite possibly none), but plenty to the Caribbean, from where there was plenty of onward shipping to Mexico.

[Grant Whitley]

But Irish emigrating to the US, THEN going to Spanish America? Ie, the 'disaffected' Irish you mentioned above?

 

Somehow I doubt that Almirante O'Connell (or his ancestors) took a side trip to North America.

 

Why is that so improbable? Certainly enough Americans emigrated to Mexico around that time. Texas, California? And the Irish and Catholics were definitely discriminated against. I could see them packing it up and moving somewhere else.

few

Anyway, I checked Mr. Polk's Army and Scheina's Latin America's Wars and they seem to tend towards your view. Mr. Polk is a bit vague, saying:

 

During the war, the status of immigrants in the army was not improved by the scores of foreign-born soldiers who deserted to the Mexican Army and served in the San Patricio Battalion, a unit thought to have been composed at one time mainly of Irish deserters from the U.S. Army.

 

There's also this interesting bit:

 

Pamphlets encouraging desertion distributed among U.S. soldiers in Puebla by Mexican agents were printed in German, French, and English, so that men of all nationalities serving with the Americans could read the message".

 

Scheina simply says that "many" of the San Patricios were US deserters. But at any rate, neither of these support my recollection that few, if any, of the San Patricios were deserters. I still have that nagging feeling though, but those two books are all I can find right now. I seem to have misplaced Anton Adams' book.

[Old Tanker]

But Irish emigrating to the US, THEN going to Spanish America? Ie, the 'disaffected' Irish you mentioned above?

 

It's been stated that Vicente Fox's grandfather emigrated to Mexico from Ohio to avoid the draft in WWI. He was originally from Ireland.

 

As to what degree which religions were discriminated againist is quite subjective to say the least . Who were more violently treated than the Mormons ?

There were all kinds of prejudices and bigotry which still exist but don't have a significant effect except on Mitt Romney's candidancy. . In the 17th century you had a few incidents of armed combat between Anglicans and Puritans in Maryland.

In the long run of things religious tolerance in the U.S. was significantly more than in the Euro homeland of it's immigrants.

I just finished a book Sacred Causes by Michael Burleigh which claims Catholic Mexico saw hundreds of Catholic priests murdered in Mexico between 1920-1935. This was during the time that thousands of Catholic priests and nuns were being murdered in Catholic Spain.

That never occured in the U.S.

[Grant Whitley]

As to what degree which religions were discriminated againist is quite subjective to say the least . Who were more violently treated than the Mormons ?

 

I wasn't talking about other religions. So what if the Mormons were discriminated against? Does that somehow mean that Catholics didn't suffer from discrimination also? There's nothing subjective about it- the anti-Catholic sentiment in the US at the time is well documented.

 

I just finished a book Sacred Causes by Michael Burleigh which claims Catholic Mexico saw hundreds of Catholic priests murdered in Mexico between 1920-1935.

 

That's correct- the second post-revolutionary president of Mexico decided to strictly enforce the anticlerical provisions in the new constitution, which sparked a conservative, Catholic revolt that lasted into the late 20s/early 30s. Many Mexican priests were actively involved in organizing and leading the armed revolt.

[Grant Whitley]

It's been stated that Vicente Fox's grandfather emigrated to Mexico from Ohio to avoid the draft in WWI. He was originally from Ireland.

 

Wikipedia says that he was a German who left Cincinnati for Mexico in the 1890s. Dodging the draft by heading to Mexico, which was in the midst of a ten year long civil war, would not have been so smart.

[Old Tanker]

I wasn't talking about other religions. So what if the Mormons were discriminated against? Does that somehow mean that Catholics didn't suffer from discrimination also? There's nothing subjective about it- the anti-Catholic sentiment in the US at the time is well documented.

That's correct- the second post-revolutionary president of Mexico decided to strictly enforce the anticlerical provisions in the new constitution, which sparked a conservative, Catholic revolt that lasted into the late 20s/early 30s. Many Mexican priests were actively involved in organizing and leading the armed revolt.

 

There is a difference betwen discrimination and violence such as burning them out or better yet burning them in a locked barn.

 

With the mix and match of the U.S. population base what group cannot claim discrimination some place, some time , some wheres ?

I had Mormons make disparaging remarks about me since I'm not Morman and I grew up where the population was 70% RC so let's say I wasn't immune.

Let us put it this way , I was told I couldn't date Sally Murphy since I wasn't Catholic , by her mother , right to my face.

BTW, the only ones who never really showed me any of those tendencies were Jews.

[Old Tanker]

Wikipedia says that he was a German who left Cincinnati for Mexico in the 1890s. Dodging the draft by heading to Mexico, which was in the midst of a ten year long civil war, would not have been so smart.

 

Many sources state Ireland such as the Ency. of World bios. plus that was mentioned numerous times when he was elected. I believe he left Cinn. in 1915 or abouts.

[Grant Whitley]

There is a difference betwen discrimination and violence such as burning them out or better yet burning them in a locked barn.

 

With the mix and match of the U.S. population base what group cannot claim discrimination some place, some time , some wheres ?

I had Mormons make disparaging remarks about me since I'm not Morman and I grew up where the population was 70% RC so let's say I wasn't immune.

Let us put it this way , I was told I couldn't date Sally Murphy since I wasn't Catholic , by her mother , right to my face.

BTW, the only ones who never really showed me any of those tendencies were Jews.

 

But again, what does any of this have to do with whether or not Irish immigrants might have abandoned the US for a Catholic country? That strikes me as eminently reasonable to assume. I don't think the fact that other groups suffered from discrimination would have been much consolation.