Guest JamesG123 Posted September 21, 2007 Posted September 21, 2007 You would be suprised at how overt CIA covert operations in Iraq are. I'm sure there are some cloak and dagger stuff going around. But our human intelligence is still pretty weak. Its pretty hard for a bunch of whyte guys to wander around Baghdad without finding more about the insurgents than they barganed for! So nine times out of ten, it is a convoy of black trucks (Suburbans not jeeps) that go out on "fact finding" trips.
Archie Pellagio Posted September 27, 2007 Posted September 27, 2007 Probably. There is quite an incestuous relationship between BW and SOCOM. A majority of its employees (and almost all of its executives AFAIK) are former SF, SEALS, etc. Keep in mind that Blackwater is not a conventional military organization (what they would call the "Big A"), but more like a heavily armed body guard service. They don't do offensive combat ops. The closest thing that they do is provide low profile security for CIA etc. when they run around trying to do spook stuff. Its actually a pretty cush racket except for the rare occasions (relative to other parts of Iraq) when things go side ways. I was under the impression that the idea most PMC's are ex-SF is actually a myth and most come from "lesser" but still "elite" unit branches, the bulk being Airborne/Para's and a smattering of Marines (both Royal and US)
Corinthian Posted September 27, 2007 Posted September 27, 2007 Probably. There is quite an incestuous relationship between BW and SOCOM. A majority of its employees (and almost all of its executives AFAIK) are former SF, SEALS, etc. Keep in mind that Blackwater is not a conventional military organization (what they would call the "Big A"), but more like a heavily armed body guard service. They don't do offensive combat ops. The closest thing that they do is provide low profile security for CIA etc. when they run around trying to do spook stuff. Its actually a pretty cush racket except for the rare occasions (relative to other parts of Iraq) when things go side ways. FWIW, a friend of mine who works for a bank had a rent-a-cop there who was employed by Triple Canopy or one of them PMCs. Said security guard is a former Philippine Marine or served with one of our elite troops (Scout Rangers, QRF, I dunno). Said guard mentioned that the PMC he worked with also recruited Tongans and other nationalities. Seems that their work was convoy duty (i.e., driving trucks, etc) and security for civil works projects in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Guest JamesG123 Posted September 27, 2007 Posted September 27, 2007 Most PMCs are not Blackwater. BW is probably the "elite" of the security contractors. Definately the visible. The rest of them, Triple Canopy, whatever Titan and Dynacorp are now, etc. are all pretty much just security guards in a high threat environment. They are made up mostly by TCNs, non-muslem Asians and Africans maybe South Americans, with only a scattering of US or UK personell, most with and some without military experience. Right now, if you are breathing, not likely to cause a menace of yourself, and fool enough to sign up, most PMCs (or any other contractor working in Iraq) will take you.
capt_starlight Posted October 8, 2007 Author Posted October 8, 2007 I see more information is "leaking" out about BW and this particular incident. From the BBC ==> Blackwater 'killed 17', says Iraq While there is no doubt mis-information floating around about this and other incidents, it appears as though this one will not (or at least not yet) quietly disappear.....
Guest JamesG123 Posted October 8, 2007 Posted October 8, 2007 I find it highly amusing that BW now has to be "babysat" by State Dept. personnel and apparently has to request permission from the battlespace commander before firing at any thing. That muct just take all the fun out of being a mercenary in Baghdad...
tankerwanabe Posted October 9, 2007 Posted October 9, 2007 I'm Uncle Sam. I send two men to Iraq. One is a US soldier. The other a mercenary. I pay the mercenary $170,000 to babysit. I pay the US soldier $30,000 to do just about all of the fighting. Something's not right about this.
EchoFiveMike Posted October 9, 2007 Posted October 9, 2007 I have to house, feed, insure, provide medical care for, account for retirement and potential long term medical care of, train, etc for that $30K per year soldier, and he's an expense that I can not reduce in a hurry. I pay 150-160K per year for a contractor. I can stop paying him at any time and there's no other significant costs I have to predict, it's all some companies problem. Now, there are certainly jobs that I'd rather use .mil types for, and there's a shit load of jobs I'd plain eliminate, but there's a place for PMC's too. S/F.....Ken M
Sardaukar Posted October 9, 2007 Posted October 9, 2007 (edited) Indeed. PMCs produce extra warm bodies to area..especially in those occupations you rather not waste your own military manpower (like guarding/protecting installations, buildings, people etc.). And they can usually produce them quickly...and could be got rid of as quickly. Sometimes they are even extremely competent people, but those companies tend to be smaller and exclusive. Using mercenaries does have downsides and those have been known as long as they existed. And they are never permanent solution for anything...more of stop-gap measure, IMHO. They are solution when you know you can have 1000 trained troops deployed anywhere...*in an year*...and can "plug the hole" by 100 trained troops *right now*. And they are expendable. Edited October 9, 2007 by Sardaukar
capt_starlight Posted October 10, 2007 Author Posted October 10, 2007 Another incident (not Blackwater) => Dubai security firm admits to latest Iraq shooting. Story follows: Dubai security firm admits to latest Iraq shooting A foreign security company mainly staffed by Australians said it was involved in a shooting in central Baghdad, making it the second time a private contractor has been accused of killing Iraqi civilians in less than a month. So far it is not known whether it was Australian guards who fired the deadly shots. Dubai-based Unity Resources Group said in a statement its guards had opened fire on a car which failed to stop. "We deeply regret this incident and will continue to pass on further information when the facts have been verified and the necessary people and authorities notified," the company said. Government spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh said two women were shot dead in their car by foreign security guards on Tuesday in what he called an "unprovoked" attack. "The first information that we have is that our security team was approached at speed by a vehicle which failed to stop despite an escalation of warnings which included hand signals and a signal flare," Unity Resources Group, said in a statement. "Finally shots were fired at the vehicle and it stopped." The incident comes soon after the Iraqi Government accused US security firm Blackwater of "deliberately killing" 17 Iraqis on September 16 and demanded they pay the victim's families $8 million each in compensation. The Blackwater shooting in western Baghdad last month caused outrage among Iraqis who see security contractors as private armies that act with impunity. US embassy spokeswoman Mirembe Nantongo, referring to Tuesday's incident, said "there may be a contractual relationship" with a US non-governmental organisation (NGO). She did not elaborate. According to Unity Resources Group's website it has worked in Iraq since 2004 and has an operating licence to work as a private security company. Shopkeeper Basim Mohammed said four or five vehicles were driving down the road when the shooting happened. "An Oldsmobile came out of this side road and it had two women in the front and children in the back," he said. "They fired a warning shot when they were about 80 metres away, which probably made them panic because they went forward a little bit, and (the security guards) started firing at her from all directions," Mohammed told Reuters Television. -Reuters
jaro Posted October 10, 2007 Posted October 10, 2007 (edited) quite funny... every street in iraq has its own army, but when foreign firms bring an armed guards to prevent kidnaps, its bad... Today's situation looks like they need to get rid of Blackwater because they are not able to kidnap westerners right now and they really miss those videos where they beheaded some foreigners... killing own is not a shock in news anyway... but to kill a westerner... thats an different story... so lets get rid of Blackwater and other guards... C'mon, 21 killed civilians, that all they are blaming a Blackwater for in four years. Its a number of people that die in single bomb attack every day. How many Sunis killed Sadr's militia? How many Shias killed Sunis killing squads?.... Iraqi goverment is a one big joke. Edited October 10, 2007 by jaro
irregularmedic Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 The colonel was furious. "Can you believe it? They actually drew their weapons on U.S. soldiers." He was describing a 2006 car accident, in which an SUV full of Blackwater operatives had crashed into a U.S. Army Humvee on a street in Baghdad's Green Zone. The colonel, who was involved in a follow-up investigation and spoke on the condition he not be named, said the Blackwater guards disarmed the U.S. Army soldiers and made them lie on the ground at gunpoint until they could disentangle the SUV. His account was confirmed by the head of another private security company.
Bluelight Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 (edited) Do you have a source on that irregular? I thought I read all the articules linked in this thread, but it is possible I missed that. [edit] -> my apologies: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21163806/site/newsweek/ I know I am only a civilian looking in, but I was under the impression alot of service personal were in the green zone ... not sure why they were not engaged as hostiles. Edited October 13, 2007 by Bluelight
jaro Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 From that article: "One military contractor, who spoke anonymously for fear of retribution in his industry, recounted the story of a Blackwater operative who answered a Marine officer's order to put his pistol on safety when entering a base post office by saying, "This is my safety," and wiggling his trigger finger in the air. " Isn't it a scene from Blackhawk Down?
LeoTanker Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 Wow... thats a real bitch slap... Why did those soldiers alove them self to be humiliated like that by civilian contractors??
jaro Posted October 14, 2007 Posted October 14, 2007 Looks like somebody was inspired by film to create a new urban legend....
Kensuke Posted October 14, 2007 Posted October 14, 2007 (edited) Wow... thats a real bitch slap... Why did those soldiers alove them self to be humiliated like that by civilian contractors?? No, what's a bitch slap is the fact that Blackwater is entrusted with guarding high ranking officials. That's a tacit admission that the US Military isn't good enough for that job. And that's a good way to fuck up morale. I seem to recall Schwartzkopf had a bunch of plain-clothed guards during ODS, but those could have just as easily been Delta Force. It reminds me about the liberal mentality about gun bans. If you're rich, you can have all the armed guards you want (Rosie O'Donnell), but the rest of us peasants are expected to play "911 Roulette" instead of protecting ourselves. Also, agree that Blackwater's high level SF background is overstated. You're not going to find too many Delta operators eager to sign up. They already have pretty loose ROEs, better benefits, and more opportunities to visit exotic places, meet new people, and then shoot them. What you will find is a bunch of people with a variety of less impressive military backgrounds working for perhaps slightly better pay but worse benefits. - John Edited November 19, 2007 by Kensuke
Guest JamesG123 Posted October 15, 2007 Posted October 15, 2007 From that article: "One military contractor, who spoke anonymously for fear of retribution in his industry, recounted the story of a Blackwater operative who answered a Marine officer's order to put his pistol on safety when entering a base post office by saying, "This is my safety," and wiggling his trigger finger in the air. "Isn't it a scene from Blackhawk Down? Of course, it doesn't say what happened next. At a minimun, Joe Blackwater wouldn't be getting onto the FOB. As much as I find it satisfiyingly amusing to see BW finally get its karma check. Its not very helpful to the overall effort in Iraq. In the long run and especally if BW isn't ejected or otherwise severly punished, this could have as much PR damage as Abu Ghraib...
BP Posted October 15, 2007 Posted October 15, 2007 As much as I find it satisfiyingly amusing to see BW finally get its karma check. Its not very helpful to the overall effort in Iraq. In the long run and especally if BW isn't ejected or otherwise severly punished, this could have as much PR damage as Abu Ghraib... Absolutely right- if the Iraqi government can't kick a civilian company out of their country, then any talk of " national sovereignty" or not being a puppet government is a stale joke.
Simon Tan Posted October 16, 2007 Posted October 16, 2007 Since the Glock is the standard carry piece for BW.....the contractor is utterly correct. If he's been asked to clear the gun, it's another matter. Ain't ignorance bliss?
Paul G. Posted October 18, 2007 Posted October 18, 2007 No, what's a bitch slap is the fact that Blackwater is entrusted with guarding high ranking officials. That's a tacit admission that the US Military isn't good enough for that job. And that's a good way to fuck up morale. I seem to recall Schwartzkopf had a bunch of plane clothed guards during ODS, but those could have just as easily been Delta Force. - John To be honest the regular US Military isn't very well trained at providing personnel protective services beyond reacting to ambushes with a 240B. Convoy escort is one thing, but personal protection is more nuanced.
Guest JamesG123 Posted October 18, 2007 Posted October 18, 2007 Its just the type of training. The average US _whatever_ combat arms platoon is VERY GOOD at creating local security. Mostly for their own safety but it creates a bubble around which a "package" can be protected. But it is an overt type of security. Troops scanning and searching, trucks and tanks with weapons at the ready to intimidate/keep the bad actors away or to zap them as soon as they show their hands. Diplomatic security is more subtle and in ways more passive. You can send out scouts and an overwatch element, but most often the way BW and other personal protective details do their job is by literally stopping the bullet meant for the intended target. Why do you think 30 something BW employees have been KIA so far... Its all a matter of tasking and training. US SF, the units with the most similar mission profile to providing protective services, have lots of more important things to do (supposedly). US regular units have their hands full doing the day to day "grunt" jobs of force protection and of trying to control their battlespace. So that left a demand vacumm the PMCs have made a mint filling.
Sardaukar Posted October 19, 2007 Posted October 19, 2007 What intrigues me is why use private contractor to bodyguard your officials ? Why not get trained personnel from USSS or diplomatic protection service ? Or special forces in a pinch? Most countries would never consider outsourcing the protection of high-ranking officials to private contractor.
EchoFiveMike Posted October 19, 2007 Posted October 19, 2007 What intrigues me is why use private contractor to bodyguard your officials ? Why not get trained personnel from USSS or diplomatic protection service ? Or special forces in a pinch? Most countries would never consider outsourcing the protection of high-ranking officials to private contractor. Because this is seen as a short term gig, not worthy of the long term expansion of infrastruture required to do it via US .mil and .gov forces. For that matter, using members of the SOF community as bodyguards is a huge waste and strikes me as the move of pompous, egomaniac asshats. That's what MP's are for, and in most cases, it's probably adequate to issue the person in question a sidearm and ask them to man up and be responsible for their own damned security. As (Foch? DeGaul?) said, "Grave yards are full of indispensible men," and none of these people are really as important as they think they are. S/F....Ken M
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