Balckwater in hot water ?

[capt_starlight]

Won't post the articles in question but just the URLs:

 

US probes Blackwater shooting amid Iraqi fury

 

'Fair probe' vow on Iraq gunfight

 

It does raise quite a few questions.....

 

What are their (and this is to all of these style contractors) ROE ?

 

If things go "pear shaped" what are the "enforcement" authorities where ROE is inadequate or when they have been ignored ?

 

What sanctions and by whom are available if this go really bad (as it appears it may have happened here) ?

 

In recent history we have seen cases of US troops being charged and found guilty of various crimes in Iraq but none of these style contractors (that I am aware of). Are they that "pure" or what has happened to them ?

[rmgill]

Nice. the BBC is saying 1.2 million dead at the end of that article. Yeah...right. I'm sure they'll give those guys a fair trial. I wonder if the Iraqi government is getting out of paying Blackwater too.

[Jim Martin]

The obvious lesson is that if your convoy is ambushed by insurgents in an urban zone, it's better to allow yourself to be killed than to return fire, all that will get you is a tour of the Iraqi "justice" and penal system.

[m1a1mg]

It amazes me that we put our people's lives on the line for people who will never appreciate it.

 

Unbelievable that Maliki could make Chalabi look good.

[capt_starlight]

It amazes me that we put our people's lives on the line for people who will never appreciate it.

 

I'm sorry, but I am somewhat confused by this statement. Could you explain a little further particularly its relevance to this case and to the original questions I asked?

[Bluelight]

Blackwater is subject to UCMJ:

 

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/...ubject_to_ucmj/

 

The one sentence section (number 552 of a total 3510 sections) states that “Paragraph (10) of section 802(a) of title 10, United States Code (article 2(a) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice), is amended by striking `war’ and inserting `declared war or a contingency operation’.”

 

However, this is a point of confusion, as it is also reported that Paul Bremer exempted them (blackwater) from both Iraqi and US prosecution.

 

If these guys were at all professional they probably escaped and evaded out of there. It shouldn't matter, as I personally suspect that the 2007 law override any deals with Bremer, and they will either turn themselves in or become fugitives of the US goverment.

 

They don't have ROEs, there are videos floating around the internet of PMCs opening fire on civilians floating around the internet. Far as I have heard, no PMC (private military company) has been penalized. I don't know if there have been previous incidents with blackwater.

 

http://matt.carter.name/download/front_lin...nately.avi.html

 

If you nitpick the law, these guys are not mercenarys according to the geneva convention in blackwaters case, but if you ask me they are.

 

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From what I have been able to put together their convoy was hit by a mortar. Immediatily following this the blackwater guys opened fire. Civilians died (unclear from whos fire as far as I can tell at this time) It is unknown if when they opened fire they were receiving direct fire. Iraqi police (on location?) responded and were killed (iraqi goverment asserts by blackwater).

 

Technically, Iraqi police are instructed not to get involved. (basically, the pmc is to have free freedom of action)

 

 

On a personal level, from what I know of by the actions of similiar companies in the past, I believe the blackwater guys are guilty as charged.

 

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The whole PMC deal is bad news. They basically contribute to the chaos in iraq in that they don't wear uniforms, and in many cases are not accountable to any military command. Basically an armed gang assigned to protect an asset in exchange for money (reporter, civilian contracter, ngo, various military assets, and embassy personal). In Blackwaters case, it is likely that are the most well armed / trained private force on the planet who have been assessed at being able to deploy a brigade sized force on short noticed almost anywhere from three military bases in the US, and are really only accountable to Gary Jackson (Blackwaters president)(known for his fundementalist christain leanings). They also apparentily have their own air assests, but I do not know the details on these.

 

As all of these PMCs are basically infringing on the Iraqi goverments authority, it is in Iraqs interest to get rid of them. As these same PMCs are infringing on our authority, it is also in our interests to get rid of them.

 

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Mercenaries employed by the state department orginally came into being in the 1980s and apparentily has something to do with ?Federal Acquisition Regulation? instructing the federal goverment to privatize as much as possible.

 

I would argue that the privatization went to far in the matters where security is involved, and that diplomatic security should instead be handled by the diplomatic security service.

Edited September 18, 2007 by Bluelight

[Kensuke]

Blackwater is a good reason why "no bid" contracts should be outlawed in this country.

 

Like for instance, why are these morons contracted to guard the embassy in Baghdad? I thought we already had an organization for that. They're called US Marines.

 

As for the convoy attack, though I loath to admit it, I kinda believe the Iraqis on this one. Mainly because there is video evidence on the internet of private security firms doing stupid shit that would get US troops dragged before a courts marshal. They were "exonerated" too.

 

- John

[Sami Jumppanen]

Like for instance, why are these morons contracted to guard the embassy in Baghdad? I thought we already had an organization for that. They're called US Marines.

 

Considering that Marines follow ROE and contractors don't, i belive that using Marines for more complicated duties is a good thing.

[m1a1mg]

I'm sorry, but I am somewhat confused by this statement. Could you explain a little further particularly its relevance to this case and to the original questions I asked?

It's relevant to the case because of the people Blackwater protects. Whether it was relevant to the particular questions you asked or not, I don't know.

[capt_starlight]

It's relevant to the case because of the people Blackwater protects. Whether it was relevant to the particular questions you asked or not, I don't know.

 

To get co-operation one of the battles the US has to win is the PR one. Protection from such an outfit may in fact be counter-productive to public perception of the US in both the country they operate and in the wider community at large. It appears as though "privatisation" may have actually gone too far in the military.

 

Are private armies like this actually cheaper on the taxpayer of the US than a trained members of the armed forces ?

[Bluelight]

It amazes me that we put our people's lives on the line for people who will never appreciate it.

 

Unbelievable that Maliki could make Chalabi look good.

 

It's relevant to the case because of the people Blackwater protects. Whether it was relevant to the particular questions you asked or not, I don't know.

 

Why would anyone appreciate it? --> These people are mercenaries. They receive massive compensation for the service they perform. Their fate has no political significance. They were / are a necessary evil that is currently being vilified in popular culture. (Ex. K-Ville pilot)

 

My impression of people who work for PMCs that are from US military is that many of them feel they are still serving there country, just with an alternate funding source. In many cases they are guarding something good and fine (US Aid for example) and feel they are assisting in the war effort. While they do perform a valued service to the people who pay them, I suspect many of them are fooling themselves into thinking they are more then they are.

 

Ultimately, like it or not, on the political level they are nothing more the mercenaries. Their fate has little to no significance. When a soldier dies it’s a horrible thing. When a mercenary dies no one cares beyond there immediate relations. A soldier fights for his country. Many of these mercenaries are also fighting for there country, but they fail to realize they are now in a mercenary relationship and they are the only ones who see it that way. If it wasn't for the massive paychecks they received, it would be rather sad.

 

All the appreciation they will ever receive is going to come in the form of their paycheck.

Edited September 19, 2007 by Bluelight

[m1a1mg]

Blackwater is specifically what the DoD wanted when they decided outsourcing is the answer. I've heard the horror stories about Blackwater, but if the Iraqis could half way attempt to get their little shithole country in order instead of spending all their time bitching about Americans, maybe we'd get somewhere.

[Red 6]

I've never worked for Blackwater personally, but my best buudy got back a couple of months ago from a tour over in Iraq. The folks that work for Blackwater are, by and large, brave men with a very tough job to do.

[capt_starlight]

Blackwater is specifically what the DoD wanted when they decided outsourcing is the answer. I've heard the horror stories about Blackwater, but if the Iraqis could half way attempt to get their little shithole country in order instead of spending all their time bitching about Americans, maybe we'd get somewhere.

 

Unfortunately Blackwater and the other private armies together with CoW forces are one side of the problem - bit hard to run a country if you don't have control over at least one side of the equation. In the environment created by the fall of Hussein (however laudable that was) it is a wonder that anything or anyone survives at all.....

[a77]

Are private armies like this actually cheaper on the taxpayer of the US than a trained members of the armed forces ?

 

Probebly not, but ther losses do not count as "real" casualties, and that look good in the statistics....

[Rocky Davis]

Are private armies like this actually cheaper on the taxpayer of the US than a trained members of the armed forces ?

 

Hiring civilian contaractors is a good way to make sure that every available actual soldier or Marine can do his actual wartime mission there without being bogged down with various and sundry "shit jobs" like pulling guard duty, etc.

 

Regarding statistics of the casualties, only military members are counted in the statisitics for members of the Coalition. The hired help casualties are not included. They are there because they want to be there - for fairly high pay, adventure or whatever.

[Old Tanker]

Probebly not, but ther losses do not count as "real" casualties, and that look good in the statistics....

 

There was a report very recently that 1001 U.S. KIA civilian casulties in Iraq. Not sure % of private or direct hire types such as State Dept vs. Blackwater .

[Paul G.]

Interesting twist

 

CIA Shut Down in Iraq

 

Movements of key CIA station personnel in Baghdad—along with most State department diplomats and teams building police stations and schools—have been frozen for the second day in a row, according to a State department source who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

 

Essentially, the CIA, State department and government contractors are stuck inside the International Zone, also known as “the Green Zone,” in Central Baghdad. Even travel inside that walled enclave is somewhat restricted.

 

Pajamas Media is the first to report that the CIA station is all but motionless—as meetings with informants and Iraqi government officials have been hastily cancelled.

 

What caused the shut down? Following a firefight between Iraqi insurgents and a Blackwater USA protection detail on Sunday (12:08 PM Baghdad time), Iraqi officials suspended the operating license of the North Carolina-based government contractor. While the Iraqi government is yet to hold a formal hearing on the matter, Blackwater and all it protects remain frozen.

[Junior FO]

...

Edited September 19 by Junior FO

[Briganza]

Are private armies like this actually cheaper on the taxpayer of the US than a trained members of the armed forces ?

 

Yes, no pension, no health care, no training cost, no weapon support chain, no re-supply chain, no long term employment need or redundancy requirement just fire and forget. So if you compared an army sgt with a PMC person the monthly pay may be higher but it is only for a short time a soldier could be for 30 years and you also support his family even when they are brocken.

[Briganza]

Pajamas Media is the first to report that the CIA station is all but motionless—as meetings with informants and Iraqi government officials have been hastily cancelled.

 

Some how I think a large black convoy parked outside your house would curtail most informants. I can't see this having an affect on the covert actions of the CIA. Some how I think the cancelling of trips is a tit-for-tat exercise by the USSD.

[Guest JamesG123]

Some how I think a large black convoy parked outside your house would curtail most informants. I can't see this having an affect on the covert actions of the CIA. Some how I think the cancelling of trips is a tit-for-tat exercise by the USSD.

 

Probably. There is quite an incestuous relationship between BW and SOCOM. A majority of its employees (and almost all of its executives AFAIK) are former SF, SEALS, etc.

 

Keep in mind that Blackwater is not a conventional military organization (what they would call the "Big A"), but more like a heavily armed body guard service. They don't do offensive combat ops. The closest thing that they do is provide low profile security for CIA etc. when they run around trying to do spook stuff. Its actually a pretty cush racket except for the rare occasions (relative to other parts of Iraq) when things go side ways.

[Paul G.]

Aledged internal Blackwater memo...

 

Subject: Private and Confidential- Blackwater Proprietary

 

I wanted to get you some facts regarding Sunday's incident in Iraq:

 

As you have obviously seen in the media Blackwater DSS personnel were involved in an incident in Baghdad that has made International news. These are the facts as we understand them:

 

Based on cables, incident reports, and witness accounts, Blackwater is confident that its independent contractors acted lawfully and appropriately in response to a hostile threat in Baghdad on Sunday.

 

Initial press accounts include countless inaccuracies. For instance, the helicopters providing aerial support never fired weapons.

 

Furthermore, we have received no official word from the Ministry of the Interior regarding plans to revoke licenses. The "civilians" reportedly fired upon by Blackwater professionals were in fact armed enemies.

 

Blackwater was escorting a US Embassy convoy when a roadside bomb disabled one of the armored vehicles in the convoy. No one was injured.

 

Bombing occurred 25 yards outside our venue in Monsoor District

The embassy employees were immediately escorted away from the area.

Tactical Support Team (TST) requested

TST receives small arms fire in traffic circle near the initial explosion

TST command vehicle disabled by small arms fire

Blackwater personnel came under small arms fire when they were attempting to tow the disabled vehicle away. They returned fire.

A vehicle approached at high rate of speed during the salvage operation and ignored warnings to stop. The vehicle was fired upon until it stopped moving.

Another vehicle moved behind the stopped vehicle and began to push it toward the salvage operation. That vehicle was also stopped.

We suspect the first vehicle contained explosives and was trying to get within range for detonation.

Blackwater personnel exited the area as soon as possible. In cases like this, we do not stay around to investigate.

The press is reporting "civilian" deaths. The reality is these people were trying to kill Americans. They are insurgents and terrorists.

We did our job. We protected embassy personnel against an attack meant to kill them.

The licensing issue is not a factor. An MoI license is not required for the work we do for DoS .

The DoS continues to appreciate the work we do keeping them safe in a professional and extremely competent manner.

The Department of State greatly discourages us speaking with the press.

Regards,

David

 

David G. Ray

Blackwater International

Director of Aviation Operations

[Bluelight]

Considering blackwater has its own intelligence section I wouldn't put much credit in that memo. It could be real; it could be a rather nice piece of propaganda/spin.

[Briganza]

The closest thing that they do is provide low profile security for CIA etc. when they run around trying to do spook stuff. Its actually a pretty cush racket except for the rare occasions (relative to other parts of Iraq) when things go side ways.

What I meant was that a banning order would have no effect on the CIA covert ops as they are, covert and unlikely to be a convoy of black Jeeps rushing though town.