M16 Burst Question

[DesertFox]

Everybody will know the reasoning behind this question when I ask it. I have only shot semi-automatic versions of the M16 myself.

 

How hard is it to get a three round burst within about 2 inches from around 100 yards?

[Guest JamesG123]

I would say nigh impossible unless you are really luck or have it clamped to a bench vice. Even with .223, the M-16 is a very light weapon so recoil and even just the inertia of the bolt cycling affect its aim.

 

While screwing around during a night life fire range I have flipped it to burst and gotten all three rounds into the target. But that is a 12" x 18" half target form from 50m.

[Doug Kibbey]

My experience with the full-auto versions only, but three round burst in two inches at 100 yards? I'd say forget that noise!

[Red 6]

It would be awful hard to make that group on burst mode. The Marine Corps had the lead in development of the A2 and wanted an automatic mode that would conserve ammo and burst was the system that Colt designed. Think of it as automatic fire that stops after the third round. There's actually a counting cam on the hammer in the A2 that stops the hammer after the third round is fired on burst.

[wwt]

I never got to play with one with the burst limiter, but I worked real hard to develop a three round burst (occasionally two or four of course) and our way of figuring was "balls, gut, head." I agree with those who say putting a burst into such a small target is impossible.

 

This begs the question, Why would you need to do so?

[Bluelight]

I was under the impression the m16a2 had an issue if the shooter fired a burst with only 2 rounds, it would then only fire one round the next time the trigger was pulled?

[Guest aevans]

I was under the impression the m16a2 had an issue if the shooter fired a burst with only 2 rounds, it would then only fire one round the next time the trigger was pulled?

 

Yep. The counting mechanism was one-way only and didn't reset. Also, the counting ratchet was in play even when in semi mode, so trigger pull weight depended on which pawl you happened to be on.

 

Most Marine infantry NCOs I knew thought the whole burst mechanism was a solution in search of a problem. The supposed problem was that troops given automatic fire would invariably "spray and pray". The real problem was that troops were at times improperly trained in the use of automatic mode -- a problem that was for the most part solved by the time the M16A2 was issued.

Edited August 29, 2007 by aevans

[Bluelight]

The trigger weight changed? .. I have only a very limited experance with firearms, but I would have thought that would be a bit distruptive to accuracy? (I am under the impression accuracy is about consistancy)

[Guest aevans]

The trigger weight changed? .. I have only a very limited experance with firearms, but I would have thought that would be a bit distruptive to accuracy? (I am under the impression accuracy is about consistancy)

 

That's why it was considered a problem by users. For a time, they let Marines on the qualification range cycle the action between shots to bring it back around to the trigger pull they liked (some preferred the harder pull, some the softer). I never messed with it, and they eventually stopped allowing it when they decided to make known distance range qualification more like field firing.

[Guest JamesG123]

The M16 has such a relatively slow cyclic burst rate that you can "fan" it in semi-auto almost as fast, and much more controlably. I know I never did or felt the need to go to burst in Iraq.

 

Aimed shots & "controlled pairs" are where you make your money in real life.

[Suhiir]

I've had the dubious honor of using M14's, M16A1'a (full auto), and M16A2'a (3 round burst).

Putting a burst into a 2 inch circle at 100m? Not gonna happen.

As to the change from full-auto to 3-round burst I can answer that in two words - Ammo Conservation.

There are times (short range urban or jungle warfare) where burst is not only handy but potentially life saving. That said most folks have a very difficult time limiting their burst to controlled USEFUL ones. Dumping 30 rounds at one target is a waste of ammo. With a 3-round snap shot burst at short range there's a reasonable chance one of the rounds will hit the target.

The only way to get accurate automatic fire out of any weapon is to mount it on something solid (usually a tripod).

Myself I favor what's called the double-tap, two quick single shots. The only time I ever used full auto, or 3-round burst was on practice ranges or fooling around.

Edited August 30, 2007 by Suhiir

[GregW]

The M16 has such a relatively slow cyclic burst rate that you can "fan" it in semi-auto almost as fast, and much more controlably. I know I never did or felt the need to go to burst in Iraq.

 

Aimed shots & "controlled pairs" are where you make your money in real life.

 

Actually the M16 has a high cyclic rate - usually 750 - 900 RPM or higher. Slow would be 550 RPM like the M60...

 

But I do agree that it is an easy gun to fire quickly on semi-auto - it combines a fast smooth action and a light short throw trigger.

[DesertFox]

This begs the question, Why would you need to do so?

 

I was asking due to the Pat Tillman situation, very well may be asking the wrong question

[DKTanker]

I was asking due to the Pat Tillman situation, very well may be asking the wrong question

Maybe the question should have involved a range of say, oh, 10 yards.

[Sardaukar]

As said..from 100 yards..no freakin way. Under 10 yards...

 

I wonder if they will ever actually catch the guy who did it...intentionally or not... But I hate to think that possible murderer is running free.

Edited August 30, 2007 by Sardaukar

[Guest JamesG123]

A M-249 SAW from the prone bipod position could probably get a group that tight...

 

The Tillman case was a damn shame all the way around.

[Red 6]

I was under the impression the m16a2 had an issue if the shooter fired a burst with only 2 rounds, it would then only fire one round the next time the trigger was pulled?

 

It isn't an issue or a problem or problem with the rifle. I encountered a lot of shooters over the years who didn't understand how the three round burst function worked in the A2. If you understand how the counting cam works and that you just need to squeeze the trigger and hold it until it stops firing, it all makes sense.

[Akhe100]

While the recoil from the M-16's cartridge is fairly light and the direct impingement system makes it lighter still, it's a still a rifle round and a realistic shot at 100 meters is to get 3 rounds on the same person, and that's if you aim a little low to start with. If you can find someone who can get a 3 round burst into that small of a target from that far away, well then, that person should go on tour, cause they are a prodigy.

[DesertFox]

Is the general opinion here that it was murder....

I don't have a stake, just trying to understand it.....

[Josh]

The relevant information is classified so there is no saying. Certainly at that range it seems suspicious. However even the close shot placement is just a rumor technically; the medical report was not release to the public. It is somewhere in Cheney's man sized safe at his undisclsoed location because this administration is oh so trustworthy and open with the people.

Edited August 30, 2007 by jua

[Red 6]

Help me out here. What in the heck does a question about three round burst on an A2 have to do with Pat Tillman and how he died? While we're on the topic, I cannot believe anyone who has served in the US Army would believe he was murdered.

[Guest aevans]

Help me out here. What in the heck does a question about three round burst on an A2 have to do with Pat Tillman and how he died?

 

Because the autopsy supposedly found three 5.56 mm entry wounds closely grouped right between his running lights?

 

While we're on the topic, I cannot believe anyone who has served in the US Army would believe he was murdered.

 

Well, I was a Marine, but cases aren't that different. Yet I have no trouble at believing that some lame fvck ten percenter, if under sufficient stress and given the opportunity, would murder a hard charger. One shouldn't let the hooh-ahh pap that one is fed by the institution blind one to reality.

[Red 6]

You can believe what you want no matter how terrible. We live in a free country but no way would Soldiers murder one of their team mates.

[R011]

You can believe what you want no matter how terrible. We live in a free country but no way would Soldiers murder one of their team mates.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,81898,00.html

[DesertFox]

I have heard that it was a plot from Pres Bush.

 

I also heard that it was because he was an atheist.

 

To be honest, I don't want it to be murder, I would prefer an accident but I cannot really see it being some Machiavellian plot from on high and cannot see it just because he was an atheist either.....