US gunboats in China, late 1925...

[Guest bojan]

How many were there, what was a tipical crew size of one, and any specifics available - eg. Armament of the ships, Crew armament (M1903 rifles, Lewis MG, BAR IIRC should be standard - but were there M1917 and M1919 MGs? What about ship gun armament?

[baboon6]

This page has a lot of links which should help you. To my knowledge the M1917 was strictly an army infantry weapon, while at that time the M1919 was used only by the cavalry. Ships had Lewis guns, and small breech-loading guns, nothing more than 3 inches:

 

http://www.geocities.com/songkhla.geo/YANGTZE.html

 

This article is especially good. Most of the original gunboats were captured in the Spanish-American war and later sent to China. In the late 1920s these were replaced by new boats, either sent out from the US (which a few had been earlier) or assembled in China from US kits:

 

http://www.thesandpebbles.com/naval_histor...andpebbles1.htm

Edited July 24, 2007 by baboon6

[Hellfish6]

A fascinating time in history. Thanks for the links.

[JOE BRENNAN]

Besides the gunboats, oceangoing warships could reach as far as Hankow several 100 miles inland, in favorable conditions. For example the US Asiatic fleet flagship, USS Rochester (ex New York, amored cruiser participant in the Spanish-American War off Cuba) sometimes 'showed the flag' that far up. In the specific period you're speaking of the flush deck DD's Pope and Stewart (credited with a 'possible' U-boat kill in WWI, captured by the Japanese and participated in sinking a US sub in WWII) were fired on by Nationalist forces in that area.

 

Here's a Yangtze patrol gunboat listing:

http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/5047/yangpatships.html

As of 1925 the key vessels in the upper reaches of the Yangtze, where oceangoing ships couldn't go, were the captured Spanish vessels, especially Elcano, Quiros (her date disposal should be 1928 I believe) and Villalobos (the semi fictional "San Pablo" of the novel/movie "Sand Pebbles"); and the US-built Chinese re-assembled WWI era Palos and Monocacy. Some of their other contemporaries drew more and were limited to the lower river. The famous Panay and her sisters and half sisters, built at Shanghai, replaced the oldest ships from 1928.

 

On smaller weapons, the Lewis was standard as ships's light armament and to reinforce BAR's, M1903 and M1911 of landing parties, which were generally Navy. At the time you mention, the main US ground force in China was two understrength bn's of the Army's 15th Infantry at Tientsin. They had 8 M1917's and 40 BAR's total, per "Browning Machine Gun Vol 1" by Goldsmith. With concern rising about the "Northern Expedition" of Chiang Kai-shek's then considered radical Nationalists, the 3rd Marine Brigade was sent to reinforce them, and the 4th Marines were sent to Shanghai in 1927. Both had M1917's in the late 20's per photo's in the same book. The M1919 wasn't used as a ground weapon in numbers till the 1930's.

 

picture link doesn't work? from:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/12/09016.htm

Left to right: flushdeck DD Truxtun; converted yacht, WWI ersatz DD, interwar deep draft gunboat, WWII patrol vessel Isabel; shallow draft true river gunboat Palos, Hankow in 1925.

 

Joe

Edited July 24, 2007 by JOE BRENNAN

[Hellfish6]

Are there any books specifically about the Yangtze Patrol? Or the Asiatic Fleet?

[JOE BRENNAN]

Are there any books specifically about the Yangtze Patrol? Or the Asiatic Fleet?

"The Yangtze Patrol-The US Navy in China" by Kemp Tolley is one. Tolley was a USN officer on gunboat duty in China in the '30's. "The Fleet the Gods Forgot" by WG Winslow is about the Asiatic Fleet, but mainly its destruction in early WWII; that author was a floatplane pilot on USS Houston at the start of the war.

 

Joe

[Hellfish6]

Thanks, Joe. I've got some book hunting to do now...

[KingSargent]

The Shanghai-built gunboats were the only foreign-built ships in the USN (other than prizes) since the Spanish-American War.

 

There were three "classes": The 370-ton Wake and Tuitula 14.5 kts), the 450-ton Panay and Oahu (15 kts), and the 560-ton Luzon and Mindanao (16 kts).

 

All had two 3" guns (3"/23s in the Wakes, 3"/50s in the rest), ten Lewis guns, Thorneycroft boilers and VTE engines, and crews of 70.

[JOE BRENNAN]

The Shanghai-built gunboats were the only foreign-built ships in the USN (other than prizes) since the Spanish-American War.

Rare, but not only. Other examples I can think of were British and Canadian built PG's, Flower/mod Flower class corvettes, some transferred in, some ordered in Canada but turned over to RN, but some ordered for and served in USN. Another is the three Edenton class salvage tugs (ATS) ordered in the late 1960's in the UK (two now in ROKN, the other is USCGC Alex Haley). The three Lyness class stores ships leased then purchased from the Royal Fleet Auxiliary, two still operating, are Military Sealift Command T-AFS not USN, likewise UK built Chauvenet class survery ships were designed for USN work but operated by MSC.

 

Joe

[KingSargent]

Rare, but not only. Other examples I can think of were British and Canadian built PG's, Flower/mod Flower class corvettes, some transferred in, some ordered in Canada but turned over to RN, but some ordered for and served in USN. Another is the three Edenton class salvage tugs (ATS) ordered in the late 1960's in the UK (two now in ROKN, the other is USCGC Alex Haley). The three Lyness class stores ships leased then purchased from the Royal Fleet Auxiliary, two still operating, are Military Sealift Command T-AFS not USN, likewise UK built Chauvenet class survery ships were designed for USN work but operated by MSC.

 

Joe

I should have said until 1940. Sorry.

 

BTW just for grins do you know what the "foreign-built USN ships of the Spanish-American War" were? Bought during the war, not served during the SAW.

[JOE BRENNAN]

BTW just for grins do you know what the "foreign-built USN ships of the Spanish-American War" were? Bought during the war, not served during the SAW.

The major examples were the Armstrong built protected cruisers New Orleans and Albany originally ordered by Brazil. New Orleans operated off Cuba during the war but was coaling at Key West during the Battle of Santiago; Albany was delayed by a fire and not completed till 1900. Others were torpedo boats Somers (Schichau) and Manley (Yarrow), gunboat Topeka (Howaldt); latter did some blockade duty before the end of the war. But 1898 acquired transports and colliers were also full fledge 'USS' navy ships, and that's many more. Colliers: Abarenda, Alexander, Brutus, Caesar, Hannibal, Justin, Leonidas, Marcellus, Merrimac, Nanshan, Nero, Pompey, Scindia, Scipio, Southery at least were British built (as most merchant ships of the time were). Cassius was German built. By chance the name Saturn was applied to one of the few US built colliers acquired, or else the later Lyness class Saturn would be the second foreign ship of that name. Supply ships: Celtic, Culgoa, Glacier, Iris, Zafiro (also a collier per some sources) British built. Transports: General Alava and Hancock British built. I doubt that's exhaustive, considering aquisitions like tugs etc. Many of the auxiliaries supported operations during the war.

 

Joe

[KingSargent]

The major examples were the Armstrong built protected cruisers New Orleans and Albany originally ordered by Brazil. New Orleans operated off Cuba during the war but was coaling at Key West during the Battle of Santiago; Albany was delayed by a fire and not completed till 1900. Others were torpedo boats Somers (Schichau) and Manley (Yarrow), gunboat Topeka (Howaldt); latter did some blockade duty before the end of the war. But 1898 acquired transports and colliers were also full fledge 'USS' navy ships, and that's many more. Colliers: Abarenda, Alexander, Brutus, Caesar, Hannibal, Justin, Leonidas, Marcellus, Merrimac, Nanshan, Nero, Pompey, Scindia, Scipio, Southery at least were British built (as most merchant ships of the time were). Cassius was German built. By chance the name Saturn was applied to one of the few US built colliers acquired, or else the later Lyness class Saturn would be the second foreign ship of that name. Supply ships: Celtic, Culgoa, Glacier, Iris, Zafiro (also a collier per some sources) British built. Transports: General Alava and Hancock British built. I doubt that's exhaustive, considering aquisitions like tugs etc. Many of the auxiliaries supported operations during the war.

 

Joe

Very good. A Gold Star for you.....

[Colin]

The Shanghai-built gunboats were the only foreign-built ships in the USN (other than prizes) since the Spanish-American War.

 

There were three "classes": The 370-ton Wake and Tuitula 14.5 kts), the 450-ton Panay and Oahu (15 kts), and the 560-ton Luzon and Mindanao (16 kts).

 

All had two 3" guns (3"/23s in the Wakes, 3"/50s in the rest), ten Lewis guns, Thorneycroft boilers and VTE engines, and crews of 70.

 

I thought the USN bought a few MTB's from the brits for evaluation?

[KingSargent]

I thought the USN bought a few MTB's from the brits for evaluation?

An MTB is a boat.