WWII African American POWs

[Laser Lackey]

http://www.diversityinbusiness.com/dib2005.../Av_OBAP_TA.htm

 

Red Tail Captured, Red Tail Free is an important and noteworthy book because of the story it tells.  Most Americans are unaware that African Americans were held as POWs during World War II.  Jefferson reports that he was one of 32 Tuskegee Airmen shot down by the Germans.

 

I must confess that I was unaware of this chapter of the Tuskegee Airmen, and just as Jefferson began to talk of his experiences, a uniformed commercial pilot approached the table and picked up one of Jefferson’s books.  After he eyed the cover, he looked up at Jefferson and inquired, “You were a POW?”

 

“Stalag Luft III” declared Jefferson.

 

 

Given the Luftwaffe was in charge of the POW camps and my impression is that the Luftwaffe wasn't composed of a high number of Nazi party members or "Nazi fanatics" per say. How did the African American POWs survive Nazi genocide given that African Americans don't meet the racial requirements of the idiotic Nazi master race? Given a pilot was shot down in German held territory if not Germany itself; and without knowing anything about how the Germans captured allied airmen, I would imagine the Gestapo would have some responsibility in capturing or at least processing downed allied pilots. I find this as an interesting dscrepancy in Hitler's 12 year Reich. Would the situation for the POW be any different if they were discoved to be Jewish?

[Jim Martin]

I saw an interview with a black airman who was captured by the LW. He said that the German officer interrogating him was absolutely punctilious WRT military courtesies to him, far more courteous and respectful than any white American officer had ever been. He said he was absolutely shocked with how well the LW treated him.

[KingSargent]

The Luftwaffe was the most "Nazified" of the services except for the SS. It was a creation of the Nazi party, and its CO was, for most of the Nazi regime, the #2 man in Nazi Germany.

 

However the airforces had a rather romantic view of war, like fliers in WW1 dropping wreaths on the fields of Germans they had shot down. There was a kind of "Brotherhood of Airmen", like people who flew had enough dangerous problems that they didn't need to hassle each other on the ground.

 

The Germans had lots of experience with non-Caucasian POWs, France and the UK/CW had large numbers of darker-hued troops in both World Wars that went into the German 'bag.'

 

On the whole, I would expect blacks to be treated better than Jews.

[Mk 1]

I saw an interview with a black airman who was captured by the LW. He said that the German officer interrogating him was absolutely punctilious WRT military courtesies to him, far more courteous and respectful than any white American officer had ever been. He said he was absolutely shocked with how well the LW treated him.

Can't claim direct knowledge, but Jim's story seems reasonable to me.

 

Up until very recent years, many of the western and northern European nations did not had anything like the US level of discrimination against those of African heritage. African-American history is full of stories of individuals who had suffered greatly in the US, who then travelled to Europe and were warmly accepted by society.

 

There are also stories from WW2 of black US soldiers, in uniform, who were refused service at stateside lunch counters where German and Italian POWs were eating. Also of being refused seats on public transport, and being refused water at water fountains, that were available to POWs, and in some towns in the deep south US Army black soldiers who were not allowed to leave base except with a Military Police escort, when there were POWs in that same area who were allowed to wander freely under work furloghs.

 

It must have taken some extraordinary strength to earn the label of "patriot" under such circumstances.

 

-Mark 1

[Ariete!]

While the Nazis considered blacks to be an inferior race to "aryans" I don't recall them ever suggesting they should be eliminated in the same way they went after Jews. I think they were ment to eb alborers for the master shitheads.

 

I haven't read anything about treatment of Jewish POWs. Does anyone have info?

[Redbeard]

While the Nazis considered blacks to be an inferior race to "aryans" I don't recall them ever suggesting they should be eliminated in the same way they went after Jews. I think they were ment to eb alborers for the master shitheads.

 

Exactly - although seen as an inferior race they were not the issue of nazi ideology. To some degree blacks may even have had some degree of respect. Anyway French Senegalese regiments were very feared by the Germans in WWI. From WWII I have heard Germans mention that they almost looked forward to being "invaded" by the Americans - as long as it wasn't going to be black soldiers! I guess that both held a large portion of racism as well as deep fear/respect stemming from the WWI experience with black soldiers.

 

Regards

 

Steffen Redbeard

[irregularmedic]

While the Nazis considered blacks to be an inferior race to "aryans" I don't recall them ever suggesting they should be eliminated in the same way they went after Jews. I think they were ment to eb alborers for the master shitheads.

 

I haven't read anything about treatment of Jewish POWs. Does anyone have info?

 

 

No info, but somewhere (multiple somewheres I think) I got the impression that Jewish American soldiers didn't like to advertise their religion on their dog tags.

 

 

The Germans tried to raise a unit of Indian soldiers from POW's, did they ever try the same with Senegalese or other African Colonial troops?

[BansheeOne]

The Nazis were definitely not enarmored with blacks either. While it seems the anecdote about Hitler snubbing 1936 Olympics gold medalist Jesse Owens is false (according to Wikipedia he didn't shake hands with any winner anymore after getting complaints by the Olympic committee for personally congratulating German athletes), I remember some German commentator or other explaing away the superior achievements of black athletes over homegrown aryan supermen with "of course the negro is still closer to the animal". The plans for a new colonial empire in Africa saw blacks as mere worker bees, to be held in reservates for strict separation from the master race. There were very few blacks in Germany itself of course, most of those being fathered by French soldiers during the Rhineland occupation, though there are some other curious stories.

 

There was former Askari Bayume Mohamed Husen who came to Germany in 1929 to collect the pay he still had to get, married a German wife, played in various movies glorifying the colonial past, and was employed as a Suaheli teacher by the school secretly training would-be colonists for the eventual German return to Africa until 1941. However, he did end up and die in Sachsenhausen on charges of "Rassenschande" in the end, being forced to divorce his wife on the way.

 

Then there is the rather curious story of Hans Massaquoi, son to the Liberian consul-general in Hamburg and a German mother (published as "Neger, Neger, Schornsteinfeger", English "Destined To Witness", also turned into an overly dramatized TV movie). Seems he was never bothered much, though he was rejected when he applied for the Hitler Youth.

[DougRichards]

Unfortunately it wasn't just in some southern US States that African Americans were treated badly. When black US troops came to Australia in WW2 they were kept segregated and were only allowed, in general, to associate with Australian Aboriginal women. If anything, pre 1960s Australia was one of the most racist places on earth.

 

In spite of this Australian Aboriginals served with distinction in both WW1 and WW2, putting aside the general discrimination (this is probably not a strong enough word for it) to fight for a country that treated them so badly.

[Richard Lindquist]

While the Nazis considered blacks to be an inferior race to "aryans" I don't recall them ever suggesting they should be eliminated in the same way they went after Jews. I think they were ment to eb alborers for the master shitheads.

 

I haven't read anything about treatment of Jewish POWs. Does anyone have info?

 

 

While much of the "western world" had negative views of both blacks and jews, the jews were perceived in Germany as a 'threat" in the same manner that blacks were perceived as a "threat" in the US south. Proximity and pervasiveness cause negativity to turn to fear/hatred.

[Sami Jumppanen]

  After he eyed the cover, he looked up at Jefferson and inquired, “You were a POW?”

 

“Stalag Luft III” declared Jefferson.

 

Isn't that the same camp described in movie "Great Escape"?

[Tinopener]

Isn't that the same camp described in movie "Great Escape"?

 

Yes

[Danno]

I can't remember where but I did read a book that alluded to a massacrce of French African troops taken prisoner by the SS during the 1940 invasion.

[KingSargent]

No info, but somewhere (multiple somewheres I think) I got the impression that Jewish American soldiers didn't like to advertise their religion on their dog tags. True.

 

The Germans tried to raise a unit of Indian soldiers from POW's, did they ever try the same with Senegalese or other African Colonial troops? IIRC The SS "Indian Legion" got a whole four recruits. I don't recall offhand any Equatorial Africans in the SS.

[Laser Lackey]

I can't remember where but I did read a book that alluded to a massacrce of French African troops taken prisoner by the SS during the 1940 invasion.

 

http://www.h-france.net/vol7reviews/gordon3.html

Here is a book review on this subject.

 

So correct me if I'm wrong; If your of African origin and in the infantry, your going to get poor treatment as a POW but if your a pilot you get decent treatment, nazi's are nuts!!!

Edited July 25, 2007 by Laser Lackey

[LeoTanker]

I saw an interview with a black airman who was captured by the LW. He said that the German officer interrogating him was absolutely punctilious WRT military courtesies to him, far more courteous and respectful than any white American officer had ever been. He said he was absolutely shocked with how well the LW treated him.

 

I saw that interview too. According to him the german interrigators allways rose to salute him and titeld him "Herr Leutnant", while the officer back at his the base just used to call him "boy". Said it even made him start wondering if he had been fighting for the wrong side.

Pretty interesting..

 

But apart from purely racist reasons, wasnt the poor treatment of black troops also due to the conception that "blacks cant see in the dark" or something similar, and therfore were not fit for regular front line service?

 

Anyone know more about the German treatment of Western Jewish POWS? Red Army Jews met with a bullet (if they were lucky), we all know that. But what about the Western ones?

 

edit: spelling

Edited July 25, 2007 by LeoTanker

[R011]

I saw that interview too. According to him the german interrigators allways rose to salute him and titeld him "Herr Leutnant", while the officer back at his the base just used to call him "boy".

Pretty interesting..

 

edit: spelling

That sounds standard for LW interrogators, though. They didn't tend to go the strong arm, typical Nazi route - and were quite successful. I'm sure they knew the impression that was making on the "Herr Leutnant".

[baboon6]

Anyone know more about the German treatment of Western Jewish POWS? Red Army Jews met with a bullet (if they were lucky), we all know that. But what about the Western ones?

 

edit: spelling

 

I knew an old Jewish guy in my hometown, a friend of my grandfather's, who was captured while serving with the 2nd SA Division at Tobruk in 1942, and imprisoned in Italy and then Germany. He wrote a book about his experiences (which I read) and I also spoke to him about it a few times. He was not treated any differently to any of the other men in his POW camp (he was a sergeant) and I have never heard or read of any other South African Jews being treated more harshly or removed from the general camp populace. I assume they must have known he was Jewish (I read it quite a while ago), just from his name.

 

For those who are interested the book is Inside Story by Ike Rosmarin.

Edited July 25, 2007 by baboon6

[Richard Lindquist]

http://www.h-france.net/vol7reviews/gordon3.html

Here is a book review on this subject.

 

So correct me if I'm wrong; If your of African origin and in the infantry, your going to get poor treatment as a POW but if your a pilot you get decent treatment, nazi's are nuts!!!

 

If you are in the infantry and captured, you are in the most danger of being killed by the capturing unit. The longer you are a POW and the further back you are evacuated, the more likely you are to not be killed. Air crew were often killed by the farmers in whose fields they came down (pitchfork to the gut). Once in Luftwaffe custody, there was little or no chance of being killed.

[nitflegal]

I had the very good fortune to meet and talk with the author last year at the Thunder over Michigan air show. I was able to thank him and another pilot there for his unit's actions, which saved the father of a very close family friend who was piloting a B-24 that was getting shot to hell by the Germans when the Red Tails saved his butt.

 

He brought up the fact that some of the Germans treated him with more respect than he saw from almost all US officers, even discussing flying stories. What was most interesting was hearing him talk with the young black men and women and absolutely rivet them. It was amusing to watch guys in gang-banger outfits just stand there and listen to him talk for 10+ minutes without a peep. He apparently tours inner-city schools to talk about the value of education and I'd imagine is pretty darned effective at it.

 

Matt