Battle of Bastogne

[KingSargent]

Kind of thread necromancy but the Weather Channel has a show about the Battle of the Bulge

 

It shows how easy it is to learn the wrong lessons. The show basically suggests that the battle couple have created a situation where the US forces would have to negotiate with the Germans where most discussions here suggest that it was doomed to fail from the beginning.

The Weather Channel is MSM. Trust them to get it wrong.

 

HITLER thought that the Ardennes might succeed enough to get the Western Allies to a negotiated peace. Nobody else did, except Nazi fanatics to whom Hitler was God; but there was a slim chance it might work, and Germany and Hitler had no other chances at all. so they tried.

[Mk 1]

The Weather Channel is MSM. Trust them to get it wrong.

MSM or oddball M, they are evidently not competent to judge military history

 

HITLER thought that the Ardennes might succeed enough to get the Western Allies to a negotiated peace. Nobody else did, except Nazi fanatics to whom Hitler was God; but there was a slim chance it might work, and Germany and Hitler had no other chances at all. so they tried.

The chances of the plan of driving to Antwerp and cutting the allied armies in two was in the category of slim-to-none.

 

The likelyhood that this would give the Germans any sort of negotiated settlement on their western front was far more remote, and believing it would represented the height of folly. By December of 1944 only Hungary, Austria, and the remains of Czechoslovakia remained in the German camp. France was back in the fight with reasonably sized forces. Italy, Romania and Finland had dropped out of the German camp taking about 1 - 1.2M troops out of the Axis order of battle, and to a greater or lesser extent were actually fighting against them. Even the Latin American countries were jumping in. With each week, the allies got stronger and the European axis got weaker. A reverse or two would not change that momentum. With the US geared up and producing at full steam, and no means for the Germans to prevent US arms from reaching the armies being generated in a dozen new entrants, the western allies could afford to loose two, three, or four Bulges and not face any compelling reason to settle.

 

-Mark 1

[DesertFox]

HITLER thought that the Ardennes might succeed enough to get the Western Allies to a negotiated peace. Nobody else did, except Nazi fanatics to whom Hitler was God; but there was a slim chance it might work, and Germany and Hitler had no other chances at all. so they tried.

 

Hitler could have believed that some magic pixie will come in and save Germany.......

Problem is that it is the height of folly for competent researchers today to suggest that there was some great danger to the US forces.....

[JWB]

The Weather Channel hmmmm.....they repeatedly refed Dec. xx 1945

[KingSargent]

MSM or oddball M, they are evidently not competent to judge military history

The chances of the plan of driving to Antwerp and cutting the allied armies in two was in the category of slim-to-none.

 

The likelyhood that this would give the Germans any sort of negotiated settlement on their western front was far more remote, and believing it would represented the height of folly. By December of 1944 only Hungary, Austria, and the remains of Czechoslovakia remained in the German camp. France was back in the fight with reasonably sized forces. Italy, Romania and Finland had dropped out of the German camp taking about 1 - 1.2M troops out of the Axis order of battle, and to a greater or lesser extent were actually fighting against them. Even the Latin American countries were jumping in. With each week, the allies got stronger and the European axis got weaker. A reverse or two would not change that momentum. With the US geared up and producing at full steam, and no means for the Germans to prevent US arms from reaching the armies being generated in a dozen new entrants, the western allies could afford to loose two, three, or four Bulges and not face any compelling reason to settle.

 

-Mark 1

Absolutely. Of course Hitler was not aiming at battlefield victory, he expected the Western Allies to fall to bickering over whose fault it was, with the CW being ready to split if 21st AG (all the Canadian and most of the British Armies) was cut off. Rather, he didn't expect it, but something similar happened to wreck an alliance and save Frederick II's ass in the 7 Years War IIRC.

 

In any case - short, warped, and featherless or not - it was the only arrow left in his quiver.

[KingSargent]

Hitler could have believed that some magic pixie will come in and save Germany.......

Problem is that it is the height of folly for competent researchers today to suggest that there was some great danger to the US forces.....

But who says the media has competent researchers? Only boobs* expect Truth from the Boob Tube......

 

* Not the kind that fit in Double-Barrelled Slingshots...

[cbo]

Absolutely. Of course Hitler was not aiming at battlefield victory, he expected the Western Allies to fall to bickering over whose fault it was, with the CW being ready to split if 21st AG (all the Canadian and most of the British Armies) was cut off. Rather, he didn't expect it, but something similar happened to wreck an alliance and save Frederick II's ass in the 7 Years War IIRC.

 

In any case - short, warped, and featherless or not - it was the only arrow left in his quiver.

 

Exactly - and a somewhat overlooked fact of the Ardennes offensive. From Hitlers perspective the offensive made perfect sense, even if its ultimate goals were very unlikely to be achieved. In fact, I'd argue that the German generals who argued for a more limited offensive were more deluded than Adolf in this case. What would that achieve? Nothing meaningfull, really, just protract the agony a few weeks. At least the grand scheme of trying to split the allied armies, physically as well as politically, had vast potential, however far fetched it was.

 

With regards to Friedrich II, I think the reference was to the death of Elizabeth 1 in 1762, which caused the alliance against Prussia to crumble as her successor was very pro-Prussia. IIRC it was brought up later, when Rosevelt died.

 

cbo

[Brian Kennedy]

I agree with cbo -- the Ardennes offensive doesn't look as ridiculous when you realize that the Germans really didn't have any other options available at that point barring (most likely unconditional) surrender.

[DesertFox]

But who says the media has competent researchers? Only boobs* expect Truth from the Boob Tube......

 

* Not the kind that fit in Double-Barrelled Slingshots...

 

Well, it is always nice to watch about the various battles instead of having to read about it only.

On other subjects such as Hominid evolution, I have found such shows generally are accurate.

[KingSargent]

Well, it is always nice to watch about the various battles instead of having to read about it only.

On other subjects such as Hominid evolution, I have found such shows generally are accurate.

Don't tell me you believe that Darwinian Drivel!

[DesertFox]

Don't tell me you believe that Darwinian Drivel!

 

In a word, Yes!

This is the the forum for it though......

[BP]

Im near certain Von der Heydte also took part in the Pegasus Bridge battle. I remember a computer wargame of the same name in the 1980s (pretty good for the time) and it featured him and his Kubelwagen with double the stats of other German paratroopers.

 

He was one of those WWII Forest Gumps, popping up everywhere. One hell of a soldier.

 

See if you can finda copy of "Daedalus Returned", his memoir focusing mainly on Crete. One of his troopers speaks highly of him in "Heaven and Hell" as well.

[Rich]

Im near certain Von der Heydte also took part in the Pegasus Bridge battle. I remember a computer wargame of the same name in the 1980s (pretty good for the time) and it featured him and his Kubelwagen with double the stats of other German paratroopers.

 

Oh dear, I hope you're joking Stuart?

[BillB]

Im near certain Von der Heydte also took part in the Pegasus Bridge battle. I remember a computer wargame of the same name in the 1980s (pretty good for the time) and it featured him and his Kubelwagen with double the stats of other German paratroopers.

Don't think it ws von der Heydte, Stuart. But there was a senior FJ NCO there when Howard's men seized Pegasus Bridge. He had just crossed the bridge going west and went back to investigate on hearing gunfire. He's supposed to have got stuck in with his MP40 until running out of ammo and deciding discretion was the better part of valour.

 

BillB

[KingSargent]

von der Heydte fought in Normandy commanding ParaRgt 6, but he wasn't at Pegasus Bridge.

[Rich]

Don't think it ws von der Heydte, Stuart. But there was a senior FJ NCO there when Howard's men seized Pegasus Bridge. He had just crossed the bridge going west and went back to investigate on hearing gunfire. He's supposed to have got stuck in with his MP40 until running out of ammo and deciding discretion was the better part of valour.

 

BillB

 

What in the devil was he doing there Bill? Lost? Or partying? The nearest FJ outfit was 6. FJR, which was west of Carentan, miles away? And the rest of the corps was forming in the vicinity of Rennes, so was even further away?

 

How very odd? What account was that event in, I don't recall it.

 

BTW, Bill, I finally finished the Commonwealth Tank States spreadsheet for June and July in Normandy, would you like a copy? Drop me a PM or email if you would.

 

Rich

[BillB]

What in the devil was he doing there Bill? Lost? Or partying? The nearest FJ outfit was 6. FJR, which was west of Carentan, miles away? And the rest of the corps was forming in the vicinity of Rennes, so was even further away?

 

How very odd? What account was that event in, I don't recall it.

 

It's in from Ambrose's Pegasus Bridge: "Heinrich (now Henry) Heinz Hickman, a sergeant in the German 6th Independent Parachute Regiment, was at that moment riding in an open staff car, coming from Ouistreham on the coast towards Benouville...His regiment had come to Nomandy a fortnight before; at 23:00 hours on June 5 his company commander had ordered Hickman to pick up four young privates at observation posts outside Ouistreham and bring them back to headquarters, near Breville on the east side of the river."; see Stephen Ambrose, Pegasus Bridge (London: Pocket Books, 1994) pp. 5, 88-91. Dunno if it's kosher but Ambrose gives the impression that Hickman was an interviewee. Can you cast any light on it?

 

BTW, Bill, I finally finished the Commonwealth Tank States spreadsheet for June and July in Normandy, would you like a copy? Drop me a PM or email if you would.

 

Rich

Thanks very much, yes I would like a copy. I'll shoot you a PM with my email addy later.

 

all the best,

BillB

[Rich]

It's in from Ambrose's Pegasus Bridge: "Heinrich (now Henry) Heinz Hickman, a sergeant in the German 6th Independent Parachute Regiment, was at that moment riding in an open staff car, coming from Ouistreham on the coast towards Benouville...His regiment had come to Nomandy a fortnight before; at 23:00 hours on June 5 his company commander had ordered Hickman to pick up four young privates at observation posts outside Ouistreham and bring them back to headquarters, near Breville on the east side of the river."; see Stephen Ambrose, Pegasus Bridge (London: Pocket Books, 1994) pp. 5, 88-91. Dunno if it's kosher but Ambrose gives the impression that Hickman was an interviewee. Can you cast any light on it?

 

Well, a quick google on his name, including variations, mostly turned up references to Ambrose, which makes me suspicious. But two were to Howrad's obit notice, that mentioned Hickman, but in a slightly different context and another included a post by someone claiming to be Hickman's grandson, so...? As with virtually everything that Ambrose wrote - rather than edited - you must treat his story with some suspicion. It is possible that elements of it are true, but that he "added" a few "colorful" details to "punch up" the text?

 

 

Thanks very much, yes I would like a copy. I'll shoot you a PM with my email addy later.

 

all the best,

BillB

 

Very good.

 

Rich

[Rich]

When was the first impression of Ambroses book?

 

Allen & Unwin, 1984.