Battle of Bastogne

[DesertFox]

On another board, there is a discussion of victories "Against the Odds" and I thought about the Battle of Bastogne

 

There is a comment where it would have been an impressive victory if the Germans had won, what are opinions here.

Am I going to have one of my long held beliefs shattered here?

 

Was Bastogne an impressive victory for the American troops there?

Edited June 21, 2007 by DesertFox

[Marek Tucan]

In case Bastogne was taken, won't that mean that Gewrmans would be able to advance farther and that US troops won't be busy breaking encirclement and might be busy cutting off German armies instead?

[Wobbly Head]

The Germans had lost the Battle of the Bulge before it even started. The basic plan was flawed relying on capturing your enemys supplies intact attacking with armour through dense woodland with no air superiority. Bastone held up the Germans but even if it fell it would be highly unlikey that they would have suceded in their plan to take Antwerp and cut the front in half.

[DesertFox]

The Germans had lost the Battle of the Bulge before it even started. The basic plan was flawed relying on capturing your enemys supplies intact attacking with armour through dense woodland with no air superiority. Bastone held up the Germans but even if it fell it would be highly unlikey that they would have suceded in their plan to take Antwerp and cut the front in half.

 

I agree that the whole battle of the bulge was stupidity on the German side, I am only concerned about the Siege of Bastonge and if it is a case of the American troops holding out against overwhelming odds or if it was something different?

[Josh]

I agree that the whole battle of the bulge was stupidity on the German side, I am only concerned about the Siege of Bastonge and if it is a case of the American troops holding out against overwhelming odds or if it was something different?

 

According to Band of Brothers, most of the members of the 101st never felt like they really were eminently in danger of being overrun. That said I think many other formations in such circumstances might have given up. Its a rather subjective question.

[Guest aevans]

The Germans would have expected any infantry division on the Eastern Front to hold out for a week under similar circumstances. The legend of Bastogne is about winners writing history.

[Junior FO]

...

Edited September 19, 2024 by Junior FO

[Marek Tucan]

for example from the very Ardennes the "Goose Egg" around St. Vith is often overlooked.

[Wobbly Head]

If your disscusing against the odds battles wasn't there one in Normandy where a company commanded by a very junior German officer held up a brigade for several days?

[Paul F Jungnitsch]

If your disscusing against the odds battles wasn't there one in Normandy where a company commanded by a very junior German officer held up a brigade for several days?

 

This one possibly:

 

Tough Time for Tough Hombres

During the bloody fighting in the bocage, a small group of German paratroopers captured 11 officers and more than 200 men of the U.S. Army's 90th Infantry Division.

 

By Brig. Gen. Raymond E. Bell, Jr., U.S. Army (ret.) for World War II

 

In the weeks following D-Day, countless bloody battles erupted throughout Normandy as the Germans tenaciously clung to every square mile of the bocage (hedgerow country) and sought to exact maximum casualties for each piece of ground yielded. A seesaw struggle without a clearly defined front, the battle for Normandy became a series of brutal small actions in which attacks were met by counterattacks and real estate changed hands on a daily basis. One such action in July 1944 pitted GIs of the U.S. 90th Infantry Division, known as the "Tough Hombres," against counterattacking Germans of the 6th Fallschirmjäger (Paratroop) Regiment under Major Friedrich August Freiherr von der Heydte. The hard-fought battle would result in the capture of more than 200 U.S. troops and an unusual truce between the Germans and Americans to evacuate wounded soldiers.

 

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9159

[Cdn Blackshirt]

I've actually never read a synopsis on the battle.

 

How did the Germans try to attack and how did the American troops defend?

 

Was it primarily an infantry battle, or did the Germans bring significant armour to the party? And if so, what did the Americans have in Bastogne that was capable of taking out German tanks?

 

 

Thanks in advance, Matthew.

[Paul G.]

I've actually never read a synopsis on the battle.

 

How did the Germans try to attack and how did the American troops defend?

 

Was it primarily an infantry battle, or did the Germans bring significant armour to the party? And if so, what did the Americans have in Bastogne that was capable of taking out German tanks?

Thanks in advance, Matthew.

 

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/Bastogne/bast-fm.htm

[Cdn Blackshirt]

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/Bastogne/bast-fm.htm

 

Damn....you're good!

 

 

Matthew.

[baboon6]

I've actually never read a synopsis on the battle.

 

How did the Germans try to attack and how did the American troops defend?

 

Was it primarily an infantry battle, or did the Germans bring significant armour to the party? And if so, what did the Americans have in Bastogne that was capable of taking out German tanks?

Thanks in advance, Matthew.

 

The Germans did use a lot of armour, including the Panzer Lehr and other divisions.

 

Contrary to popular belief, the American defenders did not only comprise the 101st Airborne Division. There was about a Combat Command (about brigade-sized) of the 10th Armored Div, a smaller contingent from the 9th Armored Div, a couple of separate artillery battalions, and a tank destroyer battalion.

[Keith L]

Wasn't there and American Corps HQ in the area with significant artillery support? Inclucing 155 and 8 in. units? I would think that would help to ruin the Germans days and nights. Especially since almost all of their transport was unarmored.

[Red Ant]

This one possibly:

 

Tough Time for Tough Hombres

During the bloody fighting in the bocage, a small group of German paratroopers captured 11 officers and more than 200 men of the U.S. Army's 90th Infantry Division.

 

By Brig. Gen. Raymond E. Bell, Jr., U.S. Army (ret.) for World War II

 

In the weeks following D-Day, countless bloody battles erupted throughout Normandy as the Germans tenaciously clung to every square mile of the bocage (hedgerow country) and sought to exact maximum casualties for each piece of ground yielded. A seesaw struggle without a clearly defined front, the battle for Normandy became a series of brutal small actions in which attacks were met by counterattacks and real estate changed hands on a daily basis. One such action in July 1944 pitted GIs of the U.S. 90th Infantry Division, known as the "Tough Hombres," against counterattacking Germans of the 6th Fallschirmjäger (Paratroop) Regiment under Major Friedrich August Freiherr von der Heydte. The hard-fought battle would result in the capture of more than 200 U.S. troops and an unusual truce between the Germans and Americans to evacuate wounded soldiers.

 

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9159

 

Oh boy, what a friggin disaster. :\

[Colin Williams]

Oh boy, what a friggin disaster. :\

 

Yes, but as is often the case with most of these stories as told from the German point of view, the actions of a small group of men or individual tank are assumed to account for everything the Germans were doing. Note, for example, how the American records report three sequential attacks on the fateful day while the fearless German Sergeant with his handful of men launched only one attack, the one that happened to break through to the battalion HQ. This is not to ignore the German accomplishment or the American failure but to put the story in a little more realistic context. Its the same with Wittman at Villers Bocage. Reading many of the accounts one would think that he was the sole German tank for miles around and accomplished everything by himself.

[Tim the Tank Nut]

It makes you wonder how the Germans managed to lose the war, what with all those supermen running around routing the Allied forces...

[Scott Cunningham]

Bastogne was a mere sideshow. It only became important after the german main effort was shifted south because of the complete cock-block the US managed to inflict in the north.

 

The Bulge was lost (by the Germans) up in the N sector in the first 3 days. The battle at Krinkelt-Rocherath, and all the associated actions near the Elsenborne ridge sealed the German operational plan. Of the 5 main German panzer attacks, only one (Peiper's) got rolling. All the rest stalled at the start line.

 

In the S I have often wondered from a wargame standpoint what might have occurred had different options been executed. The US should have stepped back and allowed the Germans to advance deep in the S, assemble a massive counterattack force on their L flank, and then launch a crushing blow N to encircle the overextended, battered, and logistically crippled Germans. It could have ended the war. If a Russian general had been in charge I think you might have seen something similar to my idealized scenario.

 

The US was inexperienced at operational defense (it was the only major German attack in the ETO) so Ike and the boys were mainly concerned with holding on (understandable) rather than inflicting a crushing defeat. Patton launched a rapid, and famous attack from the S, but it achieved little in the way of mass. Troops were cast into the fight as they arrived (the relief of Bastogne was accomplished initially by a tank platoon) and never assembled into combat command sized or larger strike units. It helped cripple the german offensive, but it didn't allow for the complete destruction of the German field force.

[DesertFox]

I understand that Bastogne was not all that important as far the entire battle of the Bulge. I just previously thought it was a good example about how a much smaller force stood against a much larger force and managed to hold.

 

Chrcking here to make sure I was not blowwing wind which it sounds like I was

[KingSargent]

I think that after the 101st was committed, relieving Bastogne was deemed vital by the US Army. It was only a couple of months since Monty had the 1st Abn surrounded by troops including armor and effectively wiped out at Arnhem. Abandoning the 101 was not on the cards.

 

As for letting the Germans go past and counter-attacking later, just what the Germans were up to (even that they were up to something) was far from obvious. Not attempting a stop line would mean that the troops falling back (like 28th ID) had nowhere to go.

 

The road net converging at Bastogne meant holding it gummed up the German works, while letting it go would have meant retaking it later with troops advancing on narrow converging roads. Weather and terrain precluded a wide-front "massive assault to cut off the tired German spearhead."

[Catalan]

As for letting the Germans go past and counter-attacking later, just what the Germans were up to (even that they were up to something) was far from obvious. Not attempting a stop line would mean that the troops falling back (like 28th ID) had nowhere to go.

 

 

And in the end it proved to be a good idea - as it wasted valuable German mechanized resources.

[Colin]

for example from the very Ardennes the "Goose Egg" around St. Vith is often overlooked.

 

 

Linky please...

[ThirteenFox]

Linky please...

 

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/7-8/7-8_Cont.htm#toc

 

Chapter 12 deals with St. Vith.

[DesertFox]

Kind of thread necromancy but the Weather Channel has a show about the Battle of the Bulge

 

It shows how easy it is to learn the wrong lessons. The show basically suggests that the battle couple have created a situation where the US forces would have to negotiate with the Germans where most discussions here suggest that it was doomed to fail from the beginning.