Australia choses winner of naval contracts

[Chris Werb]

The Straits of Gibralter can be secured by only one nation, the one that legally occuppies Gibralter, although they seem to have withdrawn their ASMs a while ago and the heavy guns were removed 50 years ago. Still that fact that Spain is only 50 years behind the times is reassuring :-) , actually I believe the Spanish heavy coast btys are open to visitors and well worth a look to find out what the old world was like (I read a piece a few years ago by an old coast gunner who waxed nostalga over them). In fairness the Swedes use mobile coast guns but they had good reason in the Baltic (and during the Cold War the Norwegians maintained ex German very heavy btys in the deep north), but in Spain - in the 21st C - where's the threat? As I previously said Spanish military thinking must be light years in the past.

 

I'm starting to wonder what planet you're living on nigel. If you have a look at a map you'll see that Gibraltar (with an 'a') is no better placed to secure the straits than parts of Spain. The final shoot with a 9.2" gun on Gibraltar was in 1973 - hardly 50 years ago. Coast artillery (not just land based Exocet) was maintained there long after it was disbanded in the UK. I also fail to see how modern 155s networked to modern sensors represent being 50 years behind the times simply because the UK prematurely disbanded its (admittedly mostly archaic even then) coast artillery. That was at a time when we thought all major future wars would be thermonuclear - an assumption later deemed false. OTOH Sweden, a country with a very different stategic situation finally did away with its remaining coast artillery seven years ago.

[swerve]

I'm starting to wonder what planet you're living on nigel. If you have a look at a map you'll see that Gibraltar (with an 'a') is no better placed to secure the straits than parts of Spain. ...

 

Tut-tut, Chris. You forgot to mention Morocco.

[BJE]

OTOH Sweden, a country with a very different stategic situation finally did away with its remaining coast artillery seven years ago.

And we did it because the threat of the Red Horde disapperad. Otherwise, it would still be in existence. The Spanish situation is entirely different and I can see the benefit of being able to control the Straits and maybe close them to shipping. For that purpose artillery is an excellent choice. It's pretty hard to fire warning shots with a missile...

[TonyE]

Norway`s coastal artillery was officially disbanded a few weeks ago, although what remained has been in mothballs since around 2000/2001. The remaining forts were however all built in the 1990s and thus top modern.

[FirstOfFoot]

... in Spain - in the 21st C - where's the threat? As I previously said Spanish military thinking must be light years in the past.

 

You're forgetting that Spain still has conscription; the kit is bought and paid for, you've got much more and cheaper manpower (than a volunteer force). Having the conscripts man coast artillery beats "if it moves, salute it, if it stands still, paint it white".

 

As for maintaining the capability, why give up the ability to control the straits? It would be like saying there's no point in being able to close the Suez or Panama Canals, the Baltic, or the Straits of Hormuz. Can't think why the Iranians keep all those Silkworm batteries... I suspect that the Turks are able to close the Bosphorus, and the Greeks to close routes around the Aegean.

 

The Canadians even invested in those UPHOLDER boats so that they could more effectively control the North-West Passage.

[Chris Werb]

And we did it because the threat of the Red Horde disapperad.

 

I know, and I'm not disputing its utility. I only pointed it out to show that nigel's info was a tad out of date I do think that, in the age of satellite guided ordnance, mobile has to be the way to go with coastal artillery. IIRC, Sweden had (very) mobile Hellfire (RBS-17?) and towed 120mm artillery toward the end.

[Chris Werb]

Tut-tut, Chris. You forgot to mention Morocco.

 

A minor oversight on my part!

 

[Junior FO]

...

Edited September 19, 2024 by Junior FO

[swerve]

You're forgetting that Spain still has conscription; the kit is bought and paid for, you've got much more and cheaper manpower (than a volunteer force). Having the conscripts man coast artillery beats "if it moves, salute it, if it stands still, paint it white"....

 

A few years out of date there. I think the last Spanish conscript finished his service about 5 years ago.

[FirstOfFoot]

A few years out of date there. I think the last Spanish conscript finished his service about 5 years ago.

 

Am I? Ah well, that's me wrong again...

[A2Keltainen]

Don't the ?Coastal Jägers? still have an anti shipping role? At least I got that impression when I visited the Military Museum in Stockholm a few years ago.

 

No. According to the latest public information I have, Kustjägarna (including Attackdykarna, the recon divers) will be organized in their own company in Amfibiebataljonen (the Amphibious Battalion) during times of war, and are tasked with recon, raids, ambushes, and other similar missions. The same battalion also includes a platoon equipped with Rbs 17, which is the tripod mounted Hellfire with an anti-shipping warhead, but this platoon doesn't consist of Kustjägare (and the Swedish Rbs 17 units have never previously consisted of Kustjägare). The Rbs 17 is the only land based anti-shipping weapon in the current Swedish defence forces.

Edited July 10, 2007 by A2Keltainen

[Junior FO]

...

Edited September 19, 2024 by Junior FO

[A2Keltainen]

So what are the units called that operate the Rbs 17?

 

The Rbs 17 equipped platoon in Amfibiebataljonen is called Robotpluton (missile platoon) and the individual soldiers in it are called Amfibiesoldat (amphibious soldier).

 

A bit of trivia; the numerical reduction of the Swedish defence forces resulted in an abundance of certain types of equipment, and some of the Rbs 17 that had been used by the amphibious units were picked up by the (then) new Luftburen bataljon (airmobile battalion) as a complement to their Rbs 56 (Bofors BILL). I don't know if they still use the Rbs 17, and neither do I know exactly how they planned to use it.

[BJE]

Don't the ?Coastal Jägers? still have an anti shipping role? At least I got that impression when I visited the Military Museum in Stockholm a few years ago.

As A2K said, todays Amphibious battalion still has the RBS 17. Their mission however has changed from yesterdays defence of the Swedish archipelago to more of an expeditionary nature. Also, the capacity to engage surface ships is a mere shadow of the Coastal Artillerys. The effect of one RBS 17 is said to be that of one 120mm grenade and the battalion doesn't have all that many missiles... Compare that to the last version of the fixed 120mm gun with an rate of fire of 25 rpm and 800 rounds per gun in the magazine...

[Junior FO]

...

Edited September 19, 2024 by Junior FO

[Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo]

Tut-tut, Chris. You forgot to mention Morocco.

 

Well, only Spain has territories in BOTH sides of the Straits!

[Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo]

A few years out of date there. I think the last Spanish conscript finished his service about 5 years ago.

 

IIRC, last batch was proceesed in 2001 :-) After that Spain has had the same problems with manning levels as most other Western forces, which seems to have improved a bit lately. That`s why the navy is investing heavily in new platforms with small crew needs......

[Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo]

The Rbs 17 is the only land based anti-shipping weapon in the current Swedish defence forces.

 

The truck mounted RBS 15 batteries have been decommissioned??

[Chris Werb]

Well, only Spain has territories in BOTH sides of the Straits!

 

And you'll soon have more Moroccans than Morocco!

[A2Keltainen]

The truck mounted RBS 15 batteries have been decommissioned??

 

They are no longer used in the coastal artillery role, and some (all?) of them were transitioned to the army artillery for experimental use in a cruise missile like role.

 

If you want to see truck mounted Rbs 15, you can go to Finland, where the Finnish navy uses a truck mounted version of Rbs 15SF, or Meritorjuntaohjus 85 (MtO 85) as it's known in the Finnish military.

[A2Keltainen]

Are the guns being actually dismantled or simply mothballed?

 

All coastal forts and mobile coastal artillery guns are being dismantled, except a very small number that will be kept as historical/museum pieces.

[BJE]

All coastal forts and mobile coastal artillery guns are being dismantled, except a very small number that will be kept as historical/museum pieces.

The last modern 120mm fort is being dismantled this year. At best one of the guns will be kept as a memorial.

 

It was a truly amazing sight to see them fire in full automatic. It puts the discussion whether 5,56 or 7,62 is the optimal round in perspective...

[sunday]

The last modern 120mm fort is being dismantled this year. At best one of the guns will be kept as a memorial.

 

It was a truly amazing sight to see them fire in full automatic. It puts the discussion whether 5,56 or 7,62 is the optimal round in perspective...

 

 

That post is worthless without a good movie!

[A2Keltainen]

That post is worthless without a good movie!

 

Not a movie, but here are two pictures from the last firing of the SA Söderarm 12/70 battery:

 

 

 

The 12/70 batteries were the latest and greatest in the Swedish line of coastal artillery fortresses. I will see if I have a movie clip that shows them firing.

[sunday]

Thanks!