Turks launch incursion into IRAQ

[Tbone2]

Turkish Officials: Troops Enter Iraq

 

Jun 6 11:25 AM US/Eastern

By SELCAN HACAOGLU

Associated Press Writer

 

 

ANKARA, Turkey (AP) - Several thousand Turkish troops crossed into northern Iraq early Wednesday to chase Kurdish guerrillas who operate from bases there, Turkish security officials told The Associated Press.

Two senior security officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to the media, said the raid was limited in scope and that it did not constitute the kind of large incursion that Turkish leaders have been discussing in recent weeks.

 

"It is not a major offensive and the number of troops is not in the tens of thousands," one of the officials told the AP by telephone. The official is based in southeast Turkey, where the military has been battling separatist Kurdish rebels since they took up arms in 1984.

 

The officials did not say where the Turkish force was operating in northern Iraq, nor did he say how long they would be there.

 

The officials said any confrontation with Iraqi Kurdish groups, who have warned against a Turkish incursion, could trigger a larger cross- border operation. The Turkish military has asked the government in Ankara to approve such an incursion, but the government has not given formal approval.

 

An official at military headquarters in Ankara declined to confirm or deny the report that Turkish troops had entered Iraq.

 

Turkish troops have occasionally launched brief raids in pursuit of guerrillas in northern Iraq, and have sometimes shelled suspected rebel positions across the border. Turkish authorities rarely acknowledge such military operations, which were more frequent before the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.

 

Turkey has been building up its military forces on the Iraqi border in recent weeks, amid debate among political and military leaders about whether to attack separatist rebels of the PKK, or Kurdistan Workers' Party. The rebels stage raids in southeast Turkey after crossing over from hideouts in Iraq.

 

During major incursions in the 1990s, fighting occurred on a front stretching more than 100 miles, mostly in rugged terrain where communications were difficult and the Turkish Kurds were already entrenched in the mountains.

[Junior FO]

...

Edited September 19, 2024 by Junior FO

[BP]

Wow, this should be fun. . .

[Brasidas]

Wow, this should be fun. . .

 

Strap in boys, I think the Kurds are gonna piss everyone off in the next few months if not earlier.

[LeoTanker]

Strap in boys, I think the Kurds are gonna piss everyone off in the next few months if not earlier.

 

Yupp, thats my bet too.

I wonder how long it will take before the Kurds finally declare formal independence from the Iraqi government. They dont seem to be to eager to be a part of the cirkus/nut-house once known as Iraq.

[ThirteenFox]

Hmm...

 

The Turks crossed the border multiple times in 2003-05 "in hot pursuit" of the PKK. I don't think they've ever left.

 

My platoon spent more than two months in Kurdistan during this timeframe; we were escorting engineers and CA folks who were surveying border guard positions and the status/condition of the local IPs. We patrolled the Dahok - Rabiah - Zakho - Shiranish - Amadiya areas extensively, and had a lot of contact with the populace. The locals were much more concerned about the "Arabs" to the south than the Turks.

 

I have pictures somewhere of two Turkish hilltop positions, one near Kani Masi and the other near Baibu. These weren't simple patrol bases or overnight bivouacs. I'm talking semi-permanent: sandbagged bunkers, mortar positions, M60s, AIFVs - picture a typical Vietnam-era circular firebase in company+ strength. According to our maps/GPS they were 2-3000 meters into Iraqi territory.

 

Looking at my patrol notes from that timeframe, I see at least 5 instances of cross-border 155 tossing in 4 weeks. Again, I don't think this has stopped since then.

 

Why is this hitting the "big news" all of a sudden?

[Wouter2]

Why is this hitting the "big news" all of a sudden?

Probably because the Turkish media covered the preparations and discussions in Turkey heavily, prior to the supposed incursion. There also seems to be some talk of attacking Barzani and his KDP, because the Turks fear an independent or even de-facto independent Kurdistan in Iraq.

Let's hope it won't go any further than their usual operations against PKK.

[A2Keltainen]

It will also be interesting to see how the fact that Israel seem to have been working hard to become friends with the Kurds will affect the rather good cooperation regarding military/security issues that Israel has had with Turkey for a while. After all, I hardly think the Turks are happy about the military training that Israel, both via government people and private companies IIRC, has been providing the Kurds after Saddams fall...

[Junior FO]

...

Edited September 19, 2024 by Junior FO

[WRW]

Using a BBC news spot this morning as the yard stick - I saw a major deployment of Turkish armour this morning - in reality I saw a lone APC do its morning ramble out of a near by barracks

 

BBCs major deployment of armour - looked like a tank platoon doing some shooting practice

[ink]

Can't imagine the Turks doing this without letting the US know - surely they are aware of who is funding their military!?!?

[Hans Engstrom]

Can't imagine the Turks doing this without letting the US know - surely they are aware of who is funding their military!?!?

 

Same people who allowed a major threat to Turkish society to establish itself on Turkeys southern border, without so much as a a "by-your-leave".?

[FirstOfFoot]

Using a BBC news spot this morning as the yard stick - I saw a major deployment of Turkish armour this morning - in reality I saw a lone APC do its morning ramble out of a near by barracks

 

BBCs major deployment of armour - looked like a tank platoon doing some shooting practice

 

Rule 1 for the smart journalist. You may see an operational deployment of the Turkish Army; trying to film it may well be hazardous to your teeth. Better to report it, then either have London cut in some library footage, or wait until things have calmed down and film the tank platoon out to do some training.

 

On the flipside, I watched a BBC report on the first invasion of Chechnya. A column of 2S3 move off the road and park up in a field. The reporter announces that the "tanks appear to have stopped and are waiting", while I was irritating the wife by shouting "that's the Regimental Artillery Group deploying from the line of march, you numpty, it's a sign that things are starting, not stopping!"...

[wilsonam]

Ah yes - I think the dear old BBC has got a bit "tank-happy" over the years. If it is anything bigger than a Land Rover Defender, it seems to be described as a "tank". But it sounds good

[Ariete!]

It seems to me that the best bet for the Kurds is to strike a deal with the Turks as follows: The Turks 'tolerate' an independent (de jure or de facto) Kurdistan in Northern Iraq. They also allow for broader use/acceptance of Kurdish language and customs in eastern Turkey BUT the Kurdistan government permanently forswears any territorial claim to its west and does not support PKK activities there (i.e. Easter Turkey). The Iranian Kurdish areas remain up for grabs. This kind of deal worked very well between Austria and Italy after WWII, we gave the South Tyroleans a great deal of autonomy and in exchange Austria declared no interest at any time, ever taking them back. This did not stop (very) low-scale insurgency / protest on the Italian side of the border but without bases/support in Austria it just petered out.

 

Militarily, I think the US should equip and train the Iraqi Kurds to a good enough level (and guarantee their airspace) that Turkish incursions become too expensive. I think history shows that unsettled borders just fester.

[swerve]

... - surely they are aware of who is funding their military!?!?

 

The EU.

[Jim Martin]

On the flipside, I watched a BBC report on the first invasion of Chechnya. A column of 2S3 move off the road and park up in a field. The reporter announces that the "tanks appear to have stopped and are waiting", while I was irritating the wife by shouting "that's the Regimental Artillery Group deploying from the line of march, you numpty, it's a sign that things are starting, not stopping!"...

 

 

Does she have a sis who fancies emigrating to the US?

[swerve]

It seems to me that the best bet for the Kurds is to strike a deal with the Turks as follows: The Turks 'tolerate' an independent (de jure or de facto) Kurdistan in Northern Iraq. They also allow for broader use/acceptance of Kurdish language and customs in eastern Turkey BUT the Kurdistan government permanently forswears any territorial claim to its west and does not support PKK activities there (i.e. Easter Turkey). The Iranian Kurdish areas remain up for grabs. This kind of deal worked very well between Austria and Italy after WWII, we gave the South Tyroleans a great deal of autonomy and in exchange Austria declared no interest at any time, ever taking them back. ...

 

Far too sensible. Also, a couple of hundred thousand German-speakers who, from my trips to the area, seem to live rather well, aren't quite the same as millions (maybe 20-25% of the population) of Kurds in the poorest part of the country.

 

Things are changing in Turkey. Large numbers of Kurds have migrated to the industrial cities of the west (Istanbul is now reckoned to have more Kurds than any city in Kurdistan), where their increased assimilation into Turkish society, & their electoral clout, means mainstream Turkish politicians have become very interested in them & their views. Hard to be elected mayor of Istanbul now without some Kurdish votes. The Kurds of western Turkey aren't interested in an independent Kurdistan (they might have to go back & live in that impoverished backwater!), but they're sympathetic to increased local autonomy, & (along with their Turkish neighbours) see the remaining restrictions on public Kurdishness (most have been abolished - and about time) as ridiculous & offensive.

[Guest bojan]

It seems to me that the best bet for the Kurds is to strike a deal with the Turks as follows: The Turks 'tolerate' an independent (de jure or de facto) Kurdistan in Northern Iraq. They also allow for broader use/acceptance of Kurdish language and customs in eastern Turkey BUT the Kurdistan government permanently forswears any territorial claim to its west and does not support PKK activities there (i.e. Easter Turkey). The Iranian Kurdish areas remain up for grabs...

 

There are only two mitiature problems:

1. No way in hell Turks acepting it.

2. No way in hell Kurds acepting it.

[WRW]

I understand TSF lost some men near where I work last night - a road check post was attached, called for support and the reaction forec got caught in a RC road side bomb

 

I have been on that road many times and through the checkpoint - rather rudimentary in my humble opinion

[ink]

Swerve,

 

The EU.

 

I think you'll find its spelled U.S.

[swerve]

Swerve,

I think you'll find its spelled U.S.

 

Out of date.

 

US military aid (as distinct from commercial sales) has been a minor part of Turkish procurement for a long time. Grant aid stopped in 1992, replaced by preferential loans, but they ground to a halt in 1997. There was a minor revival in 2002 -

 

FY 2007: $15 mn FMF, $3 mn IMET, $1.4 mn NADR

FY 2006: $14.9 mn FMF, $3 mn IMET, $1.7 mn NADR

FY 2005: $33.7 mn FMF, $3.7 mn IMET, + $1.2 mn NADR

FY 2004: $35 mn FMF, $5 mn IMET, $0.6 mn NADR

FY 2003: $17.4 mn FMF, $2.8 mn IMET, $0.6 mn NADR

FY 2002: $48 mn FMF, $2.8 mn IMET, $2.2 mn NADR

FY 2001: $1.7 mn IMET, $0.1 mn NADR

 

US military aid has been between 0.1% & 1% of Turkish military expenditure for the last 7 years. Combined US military & economic aid to Turkey is dwarfed by EU economic assistance

Edited June 8, 2007 by swerve

[WRW]

Far too sensible. Also, a couple of hundred thousand German-speakers who, from my trips to the area, seem to live rather well, aren't quite the same as millions (maybe 20-25% of the population) of Kurds in the poorest part of the country.

 

Things are changing in Turkey. Large numbers of Kurds have migrated to the industrial cities of the west (Istanbul is now reckoned to have more Kurds than any city in Kurdistan), where their increased assimilation into Turkish society, & their electoral clout, means mainstream Turkish politicians have become very interested in them & their views. Hard to be elected mayor of Istanbul now without some Kurdish votes. The Kurds of western Turkey aren't interested in an independent Kurdistan (they might have to go back & live in that impoverished backwater!), but they're sympathetic to increased local autonomy, & (along with their Turkish neighbours) see the remaining restrictions on public Kurdishness (most have been abolished - and about time) as ridiculous & offensive.

 

 

One of the soldiers killed last week was Kurdish

[ink]

Swerve,

 

Out of date.

 

US military aid (as distinct from commercial sales) has been a minor part of Turkish procurement for a long time. Grant aid stopped in 1992, replaced by preferential loans, but they ground to a halt in 1997. There was a minor revival in 2002 -

 

FY 2007: $15 mn FMF, $3 mn IMET, $1.4 mn NADR

FY 2006: $14.9 mn FMF, $3 mn IMET, $1.7 mn NADR

FY 2005: $33.7 mn FMF, $3.7 mn IMET, + $1.2 mn NADR

FY 2004: $35 mn FMF, $5 mn IMET, $0.6 mn NADR

FY 2003: $17.4 mn FMF, $2.8 mn IMET, $0.6 mn NADR

FY 2002: $48 mn FMF, $2.8 mn IMET, $2.2 mn NADR

FY 2001: $1.7 mn IMET, $0.1 mn NADR

 

US military aid has been between 0.1% & 1% of Turkish military expenditure for the last 7 years. Combined US military & economic aid to Turkey is dwarfed by EU economic assistance

 

My mistake -- thanks for the info.

[WRW]

Herad some 'bangs' last evening - for the first time I had to consider they might not be fireworks - am still not sure