Tracers

[Mobius]

I didn't realize how important tracers are to anti-tank fire. I was reading "Germany's Anti-tank Troops in World WarII" and they were talking about how desperate they were trying to find guns that would defeat the T-34 and KV. From late 1941 to mid 1942 they were scrounging any guns that had enough punch to stop them. Often the best guns were captured ones. They used many French 75mm guns. But had to use captured Polish 75mm shells. The shells had no tracers so the troops burned up this ammo at an uncommon rate. Like 20-25 rounds per target.

 

All for the want of a tracer...

[Guest JamesG123]

Thats probably not the only reason.

[CV9030FIN]

Tracer is essential in all MG's. As MG's usage idealogy is usually to be used squad/platoon weapon of "supressive fire" and not so much as a more accurate "sniper fire", Tracer ables rapid sighting and change of target that is essential. I teach my MG gunners to "aim with dust" I.E. walk the fire in to the target with help of tracers and ground hits. In FDF we use trasers very much in all MG's: every third round should be traser in daylight and in every second or all should be tracers in night time. Also all our 30 mm (2A42 and BushmasterII) uses all-traser rounds to able better aiming.

[DougRichards]

Doesn't tracer work 'both ways'?

 

And I understand that using tracer in MG applications can be complicated by the tracer rounds having different ballistics to the non-tracer.

[The Swede]

Doesn't tracer work 'both ways'?

 

And I understand that using tracer in MG applications can be complicated by the tracer rounds having different ballistics to the non-tracer.

Thats not a problem.

Most of the times MG:s are used up to 500-600 meters max and there's so little difference in ballistic, if any, on those distances.

 

/Thord

[Guest JamesG123]

Tracer is essential in all MG's.

 

What does this have to do with tracer in anti-tank artillery fire?

 

And yes, tracers work both ways. While you are putting on a light show trying to walk MG fire in instead of using your sights and FCS, the enemy is doing the same to you.

[jwduquette1]

And I understand that using tracer in MG applications can be complicated by the tracer rounds having different ballistics to the non-tracer.

 

Very good observation. Yes -- particularly as range is extended.

[Sardaukar]

And it used to be a good advance warning in air combat too... You definitely knew you were under attack when tracers started to fly around...

[CV9030FIN]

Doesn't tracer work 'both ways'?

 

And I understand that using tracer in MG applications can be complicated by the tracer rounds having different ballistics to the non-tracer.

 

Not really, If you look trasers from front with zero angle or very small angle you don't really see tracers more than you see regular rounds. If you look from big angles or from the side you will see it. Either way muzzle flash is the easyest way to find a shooter.

 

You are right about ballistics, but if you know the difference or distance is not over 600 to 800 m it isn't really a problem, because not before that the tracer is burned enough (bullet has lost major part of its weight) to its ballistics start to differ from regular rounds notably. And who will use MG to distances over 500 anyway, isn't it better to use maingun instead?

 

We allways Zero our guns with tracers too so gunners know the ballistical difference between rounds.

[CV9030FIN]

What does this have to do with tracer in anti-tank artillery fire?

Nothing but this thread is called "Tracers", not anti-tank artillery tracers.

 

And yes, tracers work both ways. While you are putting on a light show trying to walk MG fire in instead of using your sights and FCS, the enemy is doing the same to you.

 

True but I haven't seen any PKM's with FCS yet. (this was mainly general talking about tracers)

 

And with Tanks/IFV's/APC's with FCS I still do teach and use "walking -method" with MG if I engage ligthly armed infantry, trucks or similar big area targets. But if I want specific point target or heavy enemy to be engaged I would use maingun.

 

Sorry I just don't understand your point...

[Old Tanker]

What does this have to do with tracer in anti-tank artillery fire?

 

Tracers are used to spot the path of the round.

As it's path relates to the gradients of the sight or to a standoff spoter with other vision devices.

Then adjust the sight accordingly which also relays the gun to the new aiming point.

 

This was a primary method employed by both towed and tracked anti-tank gunnery crews.

In the U.S. Army it was called BOT burst on target.

[Wobbly Head]

Tracers are used to spot the path of the round.

As it's path relates to the gradients of the sight or to a standoff spoter with other vision devices.

Then adjust the sight accordingly which also relays the gun to the new aiming point.

 

This was a primary method employed by both towed and tracked anti-tank gunnery crews.

In the U.S. Army it was called BOT burst on target.

 

Ranging guns are still in use today the British in the anti tank role the law80 has a five shot spotting rifle.

 

http://www.armedforces.co.uk/army/listings/l0095.html

 

Tank crews can still use the Co-ax as a ranging MG in extreme cases and may still be taught how too.

[DougRichards]

British 2pdr shot, 6pdr Mks 1 to 7T, and Shell HE Mk 10T (same shell as iused in the 6pdr coastal defenc e gun, which really showed the value to tracer in trying to hit a small, fast target), 17pdr Shell HE Mk1t, AP Mk 3T, Shot APC Mk4T and APDS Mk1T all had a tracer, as did the 25pdr Shot Armour-Piercing Mks 1T to 6T and 8T, and the 25pdr shot Armour-pirecing, capped, Mk7T all had tracer.

 

The US 37mm anti-tank gun's Shot AP Mk74 had a tracer with no explosive filling. The 57mm AP70 had a tracer, as did the Projectile APC M86. The US 3in anti tank gun fired the Shot AP M79 with a 3 second tracer.

 

This of course does not include all the light British and US AA ammunition with tracer, many of which used the tracer element as the self destructive device in the shell.

 

These examples would tend to indicate the value of tracer in anti-tank, and in some insatnces coastal defence and anti-aircract work.

[DougRichards]

Think about it and it becomes obvious. When firing shell, even if you don't penetrate, you can get a pretty good idea where the projectile has gone, 'the 'bang' at the other end sort of gives it away.

 

The use of shot, however, means that unless you can actually see the hole appearing in the target it is unlikely that you can tell where the projectile has ended up, unless you use tracer.

 

As for the 6pdr's HE shell having tracer, that betrays its coastal defence origins, small shells entering a warship's hull before exploding may not indicate where they have impacted either. Additionally, the coastal 6pdr guns, being twin semi-auto mountings, were capable of an incredible rate of fire - around 120 rounds per minute from a twin mounting. Tracer would be, like with a machine gun, an eminently suitable form of fire control.

[wallaby bob]

If you look from big angles or from the side you will see it. Either way muzzle flash is the easyest way to find a shooter.

 

CV9030FIN. I'm a little lost here. Wasn't the original thread's theme the non-utility of AP rounds fired on tanks, surprisingly tough ones for their time, leading to excessive use of ammunition to aquire the target.

The use of tracer is NOT always to guide the gunner whilst concealing the location the gunner/weapon. They can have a serious psychological effect on the intended recipient. Witness the "searhlight" tracers, where the tracer material was distributed to allow much of the light to be emitted toward the target. These were employed by USAAF bombers during WW2 for the specific purpose of encouraging attacking fighters to break-off their attack at greater ranges

ALL. The casual(?) dismissal of tracers as an aid to bringing fire to bear particularly in the early part of WW2 in favour of greater use of the FCS. Who in the hell had any type of Fire Control

System at the time in question? Other than the gunners's eyeball assisted, hopefully, by an optical system. Get real! WB