A2Keltainen Posted April 21, 2007 Posted April 21, 2007 I have the German language version, but would really appreciate an English language version, since my German skills have decayed a lot during the 12 years that have passed since I studied it. My previous experience of using automated translation software on specialized texts like this have not been promising, to say the least.
BansheeOne Posted April 21, 2007 Posted April 21, 2007 I doubt there's an English version since the document is classified "service use only". Doesn't bother anybody to pass it around in public much, but there's no obvious need to translate it unless some international publication wants to quote it in full.
BansheeOne Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 As I read through the plan myself (here), I stumble across the planned portable multi-purpose missile system MELLS for the infantry and Puma that's supposed to replace Milan. What's that, EuroSpike? ISTR it was favored for a Milan follow-on but the competition got shelved somehow. Standard Missile Sea/Land obviously is RBS 15 Mk 3. Typical stroke of genius: Current 120 mm HE ammunition to be phased out in 2008, follow-on available only in 2013 for budget reasons. Seems they want to go ahead with AGM, AKA PzH 2000 light. So the issues with the autoloader have been solved or at least look to be solveable? Will remain curious to see if they'll really launch serial production of Puma in 2009, Panzergrenadier units in the intervention forces to be fully equipped until 2013. Appearently the five pre-series vehicles will be finished delivering next month. Hm, 30 Tigers and 36 NH-90 supposed to be in service by year's end.
Praet Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 Hm, 30 Tigers and 36 NH-90 supposed to be in service by year's end.Haha Other than the three handed over to the HFlWaS/Army Aviation School end of last year, I haven't heard of any other NH90 delivered since then...
Chris Werb Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 Standard Missile Sea/Land obviously is RBS 15 Mk 3. RBS 15 Mk 4 according to Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RBS15 This will be a lot more use to you than it is to me! http://www.soldat-und-technik.de/07-06/mar.pdf
BansheeOne Posted April 23, 2007 Posted April 23, 2007 Actually the SuT article states that the K 130 corvettes will be equipped with the Mk3, which I remembered. However, it also states that the Mk4 may become the future standard sea/land target missile of the German navy since it's downward-compatable with the Mk3 launch infrastructure. As the Bundeswehrplan refers to a missile planned for introduction in 2012 when the first K 130 are supposed to enter service this year, this seems indeed to be the Mk 4. I seem to have glossed over that article when it came out, since I wasn't even aware there was such a beast.
BansheeOne Posted May 1, 2007 Posted May 1, 2007 (edited) Haha Other than the three handed over to the HFlWaS/Army Aviation School end of last year, I haven't heard of any other NH90 delivered since then... Right. Newer planning talks more modestly of 12 Tigers and 14 NH90s by years end, and 22 and 28 respectively for next year. Edited May 1, 2007 by BansheeOne
CV9030FIN Posted May 1, 2007 Posted May 1, 2007 (edited) Right. Newer planning talks more modestly of 12 Tigers and 14 NH90s by years end, and 22 and 28 respectively for next year. Yeah. We in Finland are waiting our NH-90's too. Whole NH-90 -program is now 2 years late of schedule due the problems type approval procedure. German Army got its first NH-90 TTH's last year, Italian army and us in FDF army should get our first NH-90 TTH helicopters in late 2007. In begining of year 2008 should rest of "first order" -bach countries get their first deliveries (Italian navy NH-90 NFH, French navy NH-90 NFH, Swedish Army NH-90 TTH's and Navy NH-90 NFH's and Norwegian NH-90 NFH's). Saudi-Arabia, Australia and New Zeland won't probably get theirs before 2010. Spain and Belgium won't eitherget theirs before 2010 to 2012. Edited May 1, 2007 by CV9030FIN
BansheeOne Posted May 1, 2007 Posted May 1, 2007 (edited) CV9030, I apologize for bothering you with my overwrought information security concerns ... I've since found that BwPlan 2008 was quoted by national media as much as three weeks ago. I'm way behind the curve, it appears. Edited May 1, 2007 by BansheeOne
Guest FGN Posted May 1, 2007 Posted May 1, 2007 Yeah. We in Finland are waiting our NH-90's too. Whole NH-90 -program is now 2 years late of schedule due the problems type approval procedure. German Army got its first NH-90 TTH's last year, Italian army and us in FDF army should get our first NH-90 TTH helicopters in late 2007. In begining of year 2008 should rest of "first order" -bach countries get their first deliveries (Italian navy NH-90 NFH, French navy NH-90 NFH, Swedish Army NH-90 TTH's and Navy NH-90 NFH's and Norwegian NH-90 NFH's). Saudi-Arabia, Australia and New Zeland won't probably get theirs before 2010. Spain and Belgium won't eitherget theirs before 2010 to 2012. The NH-90 NFH/MH-90 seems to be dying. Its landing gear is to weak for deck landings, the radar has a lot of blind spots and the navigation system does not work. At least Germany will wait one year and see if NHI can solve the problems. Otherwise Germany is not going to buy the NH-90 NFH.
CV9030FIN Posted May 1, 2007 Posted May 1, 2007 The NH-90 NFH/MH-90 seems to be dying. Its landing gear is to weak for deck landings, the radar has a lot of blind spots and the navigation system does not work. At least Germany will wait one year and see if NHI can solve the problems. Otherwise Germany is not going to buy the NH-90 NFH. FGN: This was new info to me. Originally TTH also should have been rated to being able to land on decks (for example for FDF's SAR Helicopter demands), do you know that does the posible cancelation of NFH -version have affect on this. BansheeOne: Never mind, I respect people who concerns about information security. You can't never be too carefully! All: Sorry for using Tread Jacker 2000 too much
Praet Posted May 1, 2007 Posted May 1, 2007 The NH-90 NFH/MH-90 seems to be dying. Its landing gear is to weak for deck landings, the radar has a lot of blind spots and the navigation system does not work. At least Germany will wait one year and see if NHI can solve the problems. Otherwise Germany is not going to buy the NH-90 NFH.Concerning the landing gear, I am aware you're referring to the minor landing mishap of an Italian NH90 aboard Hessen, I am not aware it's been stated as related to a design flaw.What about the radar and nav issues? The ENR could easily be replaced by a different radar, should its development really fail - but I haven't heard of any issues, same goes for the navigation subset of the mission equipment. Where does this info come from?
BansheeOne Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 Well, I guess that makes it open-source: BwPlan 2008 (German) Planned numbers for major systems until 2012 are on page 45 f. (also note charts for planned development/introduction cycles starting on page 30).
A2Keltainen Posted June 1, 2007 Author Posted June 1, 2007 Well, I guess that makes it open-source: BwPlan 2008 (German) Seems like good times may be coming up for anyone interested in buying MLRS, M109, PzH 2000, M113, or Leopard 2s...
CV9030FIN Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 (edited) Well, I guess that makes it open-source: BwPlan 2008 (German) Planned numbers for major systems until 2012 are on page 45 f. (also note charts for planned development/introduction cycles starting on page 30). Sorry about my bad understanding of Germany, but do these years in this chart mean year indroducing to use or year of budgetary payment? EDIT: (F*cking imageshack won't co-operate with me) I mean chart's from page 39 to 44. Some side notes from page 45 chart:- In chart they IMO they haven't calculated Candian deal of Leopard2A6M's, but still they are getting rid of 50 Leopard's in until 2008 and 15 more until 2012...- In chart there is only one Kpz Leopard type (while for example Wiesel has both 1&2 separated), Does it mean that there is going to be only one Leopard model (2A6?) in year 2012? Have you allready get rid off all Leopard 1's (exept BPz -variants)- What will happen to 25 PzH 2000's? They just disappear between 2007 and 2008.- Is the amount of Wiesel 1's dropping due their highly incresed wear and tear (operations in Afganistan) and no replasements are bougth? Edited June 1, 2007 by CV9030FIN
BansheeOne Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 In the charts, yellow is development, green is acquisition (overlapping in some cases) while the triangle denotes year of introduction with the troops. The Leopards leased to Canada (at no cost, as per recent media reports, though the Canadians get billed for crew training and logistics incl. ammo delivered) probably indeed don't figure, since the base data for the plan was accumulated up to some point late last year and the plan itself released in March, and the Leopards theoretically stay German anyway (though nobody believes we'll ever get or even want them back after lengthy combat use in A-Stan). As the current army structure lays out a grand total of just six tank battalions of 44 each anymore (seven if we're lucky and PzBrig 21 get a second one, a Dutch battalion standing in for now AFAIK), even a lot of those 395 listed for 2012 will probably be for training and operational reserve only. I believe all of these will be A6 (and while I think there's still a good number of Leopard 1 in store, AFAIK none are on the active TO&E anymore). Similar reasoning for the reduction of Wiesel 1s: only eight light infantry battalions anymore with one heavy company of 18 (?) each, plus two companies in Airmobile Infantry Regiment 1 and I believe a couple vehicles re-roled for reconnaissance use in one of the two airborne brigade recon companies. If that's not depressing enough, here's a list of things that are stated to be "not plannable" due to lack of funds: - UAV HALE IMINT- For Fennek: Joint Fire Support Team variant and UAV Aladin beyond basic acquisition batch, data link and mobile sensor system MOSES- Ground Surveillance Radar beyond basic acquisition batch- Third batch of engine upgrade sets (76) for CH-53s which otherwise will be deadlined after 2010- Second batch of Panzerschnellbrücke 2- Air transportable bridging equipment- Captor E radar for Eurofighter- Capability improvement for Tornado beyond communications, display and self-protection suite and night-vision capability- Support Jammer for air war operations- Second batch (24) of PAC 3 missiles- Mobile AA and Light Forces AA portions of future System Air Defense- Milan follow-on MELLS beyond basic acquisition batch for Puma- Wiesel 2 mortar system beyond basic acquisition batch for intervention forces- Air transportable modular SP gun system AGM- Air conditioning and mine protection for another 280 Leopard 2s- Laser/Light Module for small arms- Follow-on crew-served weapon to replace MG 3- MONARC 155 mm gun system for Type 125 frigates- Helicopter guidance capability for Type 702 supply ships- Guided cargo parachute system- Personal equipment system "Soldat im Einsatz" for all non-infantry troops- Various NBC detection and decontamination systems beyond initial acquisition batches- Common IFF for ground forces and NH90 CSAR helicopters- Mode 5 IFF IOC for NRF aircraft- plus various fancy joint common integrated net-centric C4ISR system parts. In total an originally planned volume of € 15 bn can't be covered in the 2008-2015 timeframe. And that's just acquisitions, elsewhere in the plan are statements that the budget for retention of materiél/maintenance is 20 percent below requirements, air force personnel will continue to stay below NATO standards in flight hours, etc. All this even assuming the additional revenues from selling off unneeded military equipment and property actually materialize - which is treated as a fact for budget purposes. Questions?
Junior FO Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 (edited) ... Edited September 19, 2024 by Junior FO
Praet Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 - MONARC 155 mm gun system for Type 125 frigatesMONARC is dead anyway
BansheeOne Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 Yeah, I was thinking about adding "that one's not bad news actually" to that line. I'm sure there's a couple other items in that list that are really a waste of money to start with, but wanted to be comprehensive.
CV9030FIN Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 (edited) In the charts, yellow is development, green is acquisition (overlapping in some cases) while the triangle denotes year of introduction with the troops. Thanks for the clarification. The Leopards leased to Canada (at no cost, as per recent media reports, though the Canadians get billed for crew training and logistics incl. ammo delivered) probably indeed don't figure, since the base data for the plan was accumulated up to some point late last year and the plan itself released in March, and the Leopards theoretically stay German anyway (though nobody believes we'll ever get or even want them back after lengthy combat use in A-Stan). Have you got any good english language link (or German) about the Leo2A6M deal and how it really going to happen? As the current army structur lays out a grand total of just six tank battalions of 44 each anymore (seven if we're lucky and PzBrig 21 get a second one, a Dutch battalion standing in for now AFAIK), even a lot of those 395 listed for 2012 will probably be for training and operational reserve only. I believe all of these will be A6 (and while I think there's still a good number of Leopard 1 in store, AFAIK none are on the active TO&E anymore). Thank you verry much for structure layout (BTW is it current or 2008 structure?) very educational. Do you happen to have the TO&E for these new 44 tank Panzerbatallion's? I've only the 42 tank version. How about and Panzergrenadierbataillon? Have they changed its TO&E too? Has there been any talk about phasing all Leopard 1 based tanks out after new Leopard 2 based models starts come in to service? (Isn't Brückenlegepanzer Biber's replased by Panzerschnellbrücke 2's and Bergepanzer 2's by Bergepanzer 3 Büffel?) AFAIK there isn't deals about Pionierpanzer 3 Kodiak to replase Pionierpanzer 2 Dachs or is there? Only thing that can't be easily replased by similar Leopard 2 based vehicle is Flugabwehrkanonenpanzer Gepard, but IMO LeFlaSys Ozelot (ASRAD) could easily took its job. Or then the just could put the turret in to Lepard 2 chasis... Similar reasoning for the reduction of Wiesel 1s: only eight light infantry battalions anymore with one heavy company of 18 (?) each, plus two companies in Airmobile Infantry Regiment 1 and I believe a couple vehicles re-roled for reconnaissance use in one of the two airborne brigade recon companies. Do other units than ligth infantry use Wiesels in Afganistan? When I visited in KMW they said that after Germany started operations in Afganistan it highly increased usage and wear and tear of Wiesels because of its abilities in hard enviromental conditions. In fact they said that wear and tear is increased so much that after a year in Afganistan Wiesel needs a complete factory overhaul. If that's not depressing enough, here's a list of things that are stated to be "not plannable" due to lack of funds: Nice to see that we in FDF aren't the only ones fighting with budget cuts... Edited due bad writing skills Edited June 1, 2007 by CV9030FIN
A2Keltainen Posted June 1, 2007 Author Posted June 1, 2007 Do other units than ligth infantry use Wiesels in Afganistan? When I visited in KMW they said that after Germany started operations in Afganistan it highly incresed wear and tear of Wiesels because of its abilities in hard enviromental conditions. In fact they said wear and tear to be so much that after a year in Afganistan Wiesel needs a complete factory overhaul. Speaking of Wiesels in Afghanistan; here are some pictures of them: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=UUB3CDTJ (ZIP, 6.4 MB) Aaah, they're sooo cute...
BansheeOne Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 Have you got any good english language link (or German) about the Leo2A6M deal and how it really going to happen? Here's the German article I was referring to: http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/leih-l..._aid_57703.html Short summary: 20 Leopard 2A6M and two ARVs to be lent to Canada for two years at no cost. Crews trained at Munster for two million Euro plus one million for interpreters (huh?) and several million more for an extensive "package" including spare parts (to be paid as they're used), tools and ammunition. Canada has obliged itself to return the tanks in their original condition at the end of the term. Also says there Canada pays 16 million Euro to KMW and Rheinmetall for modifications including improved air condition and add-on armor in some spots. Another 55 million are appearantly planned in should more spares become necessary. Mentions at the end that Germany currently has 50 Leopard 2A6M and is planning for a total of 70. Thank you verry much for structure layout (BTW is it current or 2008 structure?) very educational. Do you happen to have the TO&E for these new 44 tank Panzerbatallion's? I've only the 42 tank version. How about and Panzergrenadierbataillon? Have they changed its TO&E too? The "transformation" into the depicted "Neues Heer" structure (not to be confused with the 1996 "Neues Heer für neue Aufgaben" and the following "Heer der Zukunft" iteration ...) is currently ongoing and to be completed in 2010, I believe. The tank battalions have had three companies per 14 tanks (three platoons of four plus two command tanks) and another two HQ tanks for some time now. The PzGren battalions OTOH will newly assume the same structure with Puma, up from the earlier three-Marder-platoons. The mortar companies have been axed (5th company is now training/mission support company, again same as in tank battalions). Planned Puma battalions in "Neues Heer". I'm not sure about the replacement of Leopard 1-based vehicles, especially as the second batch of PSB 2 is another item in the "not plannable" chant of BwPlan 2008 and I wouldn't know that the Kodiak has been considered for the Bundeswehr. The Gepard however will supposedly be replaced some time as the Hydra-headed future "System Flugabwehr" comes online. Not sure about the way Wiesels are attached to units in Afghanistan, either.
CV9030FIN Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 Thank you very much article of 2A6M's was very interesting. Also organizations info was really nice. Thanks again!
A2Keltainen Posted June 1, 2007 Author Posted June 1, 2007 (edited) The tank battalions have had three companies per 14 tanks (three platoons of four plus two command tanks) and another two HQ tanks for some time now. I seem to remember that the Cold War Bundeswehr armored units used tank platoons with three tanks each. Have I sniffed too much glue, or when did they change the organization to tank platoons with four tanks each? Did the Cold War organization have two command tanks per tank company? Edit: The mortar companies have been axed How will the indirect fire support be organized in the future armored units? Will it only be provided by PzH 2000 and MARS, and in that case, will the PzH 2000 be organized as an organic asset at brigade level as lowest, or will be also be an organic asset at battalion level? Edited June 1, 2007 by A2Keltainen
CV9030FIN Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 (edited) I seem to remember that the Cold War Bundeswehr armored units used tank platoons with three tanks each. Have I sniffed too much glue, or when did they change the organization to tank platoons with four tanks each? Did the Cold War organization have two command tanks per tank company? AFAIK Germany's TK CO's PL have been four tanks each atleast from early 1980's (or maybe it came same time as Leopard's was fielded?), but until 2005 (?) it only had one command MBT in HQ PL. More about 41 MBT TK BN's organization in here How will the indirect fire support be organized in the future armored units? Will it only be provided by PzH 2000 and MARS, and in that case, will the PzH 2000 be organized as an organic asset at brigade level as lowest, or will be also be an organic asset at battalion level? This is thing that im interessed too. They probably rely on Brigades Artillery as organization chart doesn't show artillery units in PzGren BN level. Edited June 1, 2007 by CV9030FIN
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