troops don't like land warrior

[Ivanhoe]

"Artillery support not found - Retry, Cancel, or Abort?"

 

I'm against RFID for civilian purposes, much less military. If everything is RFIDed, then to avoid conflict over spectrum, the RF transmitters will have to squat all over the spectrum, interfering with all sorts of useful pre-existing radio channels. And in the military context, when RFID checkpoints are available from the PRC for $10 a station, less power supply, it will be easy for OPFOR to construct smart mines. Sure, its proponents will claim that they'll use encryption, spread spectrum, frequency hopping, and pseudonoise modulation to prevent that, which will result in putting a $100 RFID chip on a $5 grenade.

[Scott Cunningham]

The thing I always loved was the publicity shots showing some poor sap loaded down with 80 pounds of batteries, comms, screens, thermal sights, and other crap, carrying a bizzare looking weapon more unweildy than a chainsaw, and the guy had a goddamned baoyonet on it. I was just thinking WTF!!!??? You have $250K worth of crap to fight with, and you are going to end up using a knife??!!

 

I was wondering when they were going to get around to asking the soldiers.

[BP]

Oh you jest, but one night while riding down MSR Tampa my BFT had a brainfart (or I did while trying to scroll the screen) and showed me where every BFT element in Afganistan was!

 

LOL. . . I think.

 

Actually, I wasn't totally jesting. I ws recently at a facility that was refitting USMC hummers (with BFT and a bunch of other stuff) and they started pulling in ship data and populating the system with extraneous nonsense. "Uh, you guys might want to look into that. . . "

[Guest aevans]

It may be simplistic, but if the up and coming generation of young soldiers who have been raised on assimulating graphic information from computer games can't handle the gear then it would seem the ergonomic guys have cocked-up mightily.

 

From what I've seen, the interface is actually pretty clean. The problem is information overload -- which even the best interface can present if there's a lot of information to be had -- and inappropriateness of available capabilities to all users. IOW, it's just too much crap for the average soldier in combat.

[Guest aevans]

I think there are some useful ideas in Land Warrior, but I would push the interactive portions up a level or two. For individual soldiers having a Windows-ish UI in an eyepiece probably doesn't give a big bang-for-buck/lb.

 

Keep the soldier instrumentation, the gunsight, the GPS/INS, a simple audio system, and the datalink. Make it as non-interactive as possible.

 

That's where most of the system weight is. And you'd still have to have some kind of computer to control the integrated actions of all of those systems. Added software capabilities and data storage, strangely enough, is not a mass/bulk factor.

 

Feed this information upwards to a more robust platoon/company monitoring component with a dedicated operator and Tablet PC/Laptop.

More realisticall, have every team and squad leader carry a micro-BFT station that consists of a voice/data radio and GPS locator. At the platoon level have a communicator trained in the use of a backpack mini-BFT station about the size and weight of a "shoebox" computer, with a separate interface nodule about the size of a trade paperback that can be worn on the chest (Marines were experimenting with something like this a few years back).

 

RFID everything - uniforms, bullets, grenades, MREs, etc.. Provide an RFID reader to leaders to quckly catalog what's being carried by each soldier.

 

Add an RFID reader to the rifle that knows which magazine it has in it, how many rounds, and which exact round ID is chambered.

 

Push this information up the food chain so higher ups can monitor ammo usage, location/direction/volume of fire, etc..

 

I worked with RFID in a former life. Do you have any idea how much detectable energy RFID readers generate? Yeah, let's go around the battlefield radiating like crazy, just so we can keep track of whether PFC Benotz has lost one of his magazined.

 

Add an "I'm HIT" button that instantly transmits location and whatever vitals it can to the soldier's leadership and medics.

 

How about just yelling, "I'm hit."? if every team and squad leader has a radio, getting a medic notified won't be too hard.

[Jeff]

Can they play solitare and minesweeper while they wait in ambush?

[swerve]

Oh you Phillistines. Think of the synergy you'd get if an Army private in the middle of a firefight in Afghanistan knew where all of the Navy's LCS ships were located!

 

You've put me in mind of the bloke on another forum who proudly told anyone who'd listen that the inability of a Swede flying a Gripen over Stockholm to know what was happening off Diego Garcia gravely handicapped him in comparison to US fighter pilots over Europe, N. America etc.

[EchoFiveMike]

Everything is already available, it's just not integrated into a single MILSPEC, titanium, rustproof, NIJ Class IV, STANAG 1459 Level 3, $3.57million dollar case that weighes 48 lbs per unit. Just get every SL and FTL a PIP'd PRC-148 with the BA-5590 adaptor, a decent VHF antenna for ranged use, a commercial GPS unit with WAAS, PRR's for the individual Marines and monocular NVG's(PVS-14 or 22) for everyone. All of this is available, relatively inexpensive and not unduly heavy/bulky. Most importantly, it's cheap enough that you can buy and field it, and when it breaks you can replace it. My Maggellan GPS was $150 in 2004 and did everything a PLGR did; better, faster, smaller, lighter. And if it broke, I could get a new one with the wad of cash I routinely carried in my pocket. The money wasted on LW could have bought MPV's for everyone in theater. Idiots. S/F.....Ken M

[superfractal]

Maybe the land warrior is a bad idea but the concept is fairly sound, certainly the fist program which runs along the same idea was liked by those that tested it from what i have read.

Having said that it doesnt seem to be the all singing all dancing unit that LW was, it consisted of a advanced sight (thermals and a camera apparently it can send data back i assume to artillery?), gps nad some sort of communicator/tracking device and integrated radio.

And more importantly the system has been put on hold until a power source small enough can be manufactred, apparently there waiting on power cells or something?

 

Seems like a sound idea and doesnt interfere with the job on the ground to much, i guess it is a case of adding bells and whistles to a good idea and bloating it to much.

[Doug97]

Some interesting info on what the system is supposed to do:

 

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology...aw/4215725.html

 

The "HUD" certainly seems to contain a lot of menus.

[harryRIEDL]

Maybe the land warrior is a bad idea but the concept is fairly sound, certainly the fist program which runs along the same idea was liked by those that tested it from what i have read.

Having said that it doesnt seem to be the all singing all dancing unit that LW was, it consisted of a advanced sight (thermals and a camera apparently it can send data back i assume to artillery?), gps nad some sort of communicator/tracking device and integrated radio.

And more importantly the system has been put on hold until a power source small enough can be manufactred, apparently there waiting on power cells or something?

 

Seems like a sound idea and doesnt interfere with the job on the ground to much, i guess it is a case of adding bells and whistles to a good idea and bloating it to much.

 

i just thinking wouldn't LW cause an expontail increase in plattons and sqads being micro manged by people who should have no right to.

 

[PFC Malarky genral petraus says your postion in delta fireteam is incorrect he want you to be closer to your leader]

[harryRIEDL]

doble post sorry

Edited April 20, 2007 by harryRIEDL

[superfractal]

i just thinking wouldn't LW cause an expontail increase in plattons and sqads being micro manged by people who should have no right to.

 

[PFC Malarky genral petraus says your postion in delta fireteam is incorrect he want you to be closer to your leader]

 

It may well do and i agree that micro managing is a bad thing of course, but in the case of fist the camera is only to send data it is not live, and i think the pda thingy's only send data to each other im not sure about that but i think thats right.

 

like i said i think it is the execution not the idea that is wrong, and the technology that is out of place.

[Corinthian]

I wonder, what with all that hardware, would they sorta provide some stand-off protection for the troops against bullets and such?

 

Unless the computers are in bullet proof containers, I can just imagine troops ripping out their damaged/dead equipment in firefights like Mogadishu and such to save on weight, bitching around the uselessness of the equipment.

 

 

I'm not a fan of LW at all. Maybe if they could make the menus, maps and other stuff accessible via voice command or just by thinking so that the soldier's hands are always on his weapon and his eyes are almost always on the battlefield, then that's cool stuff that can actually be useful.

 

Must admit, ever since I heard of LW, my first thought was: Someone at the Pentagon was playing too much FPS games....

[Macarthur]

no, an FPS HUD would be useful: It tells you how much ammo is left (total and in the gun) where the enemies and friendlies are' where your gun is pointed and thats about it. If objectives/ROE change, a little text blurb appears at the top to tell you about it. What else does the soldier need to know? integrate/replace the motion tracker with GPS and you've got a nicely pared down LW for the common soldier, no bulk, no frills

[superfractal]

no, an FPS HUD would be useful: It tells you how much ammo is left (total and in the gun) where the enemies and friendlies are' where your gun is pointed and thats about it. If objectives/ROE change, a little text blurb appears at the top to tell you about it. What else does the soldier need to know? integrate/replace the motion tracker with GPS and you've got a nicely pared down LW for the common soldier, no bulk, no frills

 

I agree, i hope this is the line the fist program is going down for uk forces as we have already bought a load of the kits.

It does have a couple of additions like thermal and night vision built in some how i think the Thermal is in the monicle and the NV is built into the sight. There is as personel communicator/pda device but i dont think that meant for much more than keeping track of people's positions or send messages like ambusg in 5, 4 , 3 etc and a camera built into the sight to relay footage.

 

Like you say nothing that is going to detract from fightin to much.

[Doug97]

It does have a couple of additions like thermal and night vision built in some how i think the Thermal is in the monicle and the NV is built into the sight.

What's the advantage in having both?

[Marek Tucan]

NV may be better than TI for finding your way at night? As it produces picture of the kind we're more used to see, based on object lighting and shadows and not on temperature?

[superfractal]

What's the advantage in having both?

 

im not sure to be honest with you, it is probably so you can use either at appropriate times rather than both at the same time.

 

http://www.defense-update.com/products/f/fist.htm

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/fist/

 

There is a couple of links for more info, better to get it form the horses mouth i suppose.

Edited April 21, 2007 by superfractal

[TonyE]

Call me old fashioned, all these hightech gadgets might have their use, but i still prefer it the old skool way.....

[Corinthian]

Call me old fashioned, all these hightech gadgets might have their use, but i still prefer it the old skool way.....

 

Yeah right. Underneath that uniform and skin is a certified Viking Battle Cyborg 3000 with built-in thermals, advanced FCS, and the strength of 50 Iron Men. Old school my ass....

[Yish]

Can they play solitare and minesweeper while they wait in ambush?

A couple of years ago three IDF soldiers were caught watching a movie on a laptop, while in

ambush. Needless to say they were kicked out of the unit.