Brazilian tank projects ?

[Vuk]

Did the Brazilian launch a modernization program for the Sherman like they did for the Stuart (X1A)?

Can someone point me to a good site about Brazilian armor (in English)

 

Thanks in advance

Edited March 21, 2007 by Vuk

[Catalan]

Explenation wise, it sucks, you will get no information from it, but it has a descent amount of photographs of different tanks - Jedsite. Paid subscription though - it's like 5 dollars for a week, 20 for a year.

[Vuk]

Used the free trial

[Vuk]

Forgot to thank you

[King Jester]

Going from memory here, IRCC brazilians did quite a bit on their Shermans. They rebuild the M-4 vertical suspension into HVSS suspension, with new tracks, M-51 style. They put Scania engines in, also. Don´t know waht they made to the main armament.

I´don´t how many tanks were converted that way. I thnik I remember the conversions were made by the defunct company MOTO PECAS.

 

They also made several attempts to convert M-4 s into recovery vehcles, different from both M-31, M-32 or M-74´s. They basically took a turretless M-4 hull, put two hinges in the upper front for A frame, and a cable winch in the turret hole. Again, don´t know how many coversions werre made.

 

There was also, IRCC, a bridge layer conversion (they had the M-5 Staurt bridge layer as well).

 

So far I remember having read on a brazilian site (portuguese) called defesa.net.br or similar.

 

King Jester

[Vuk]

Thank you

[Reginaldo Bacchi]

Going from memory here, IRCC brazilians did quite a bit on their Shermans. They rebuild the M-4 vertical suspension into HVSS suspension, with new tracks, M-51 style. They put Scania engines in, also. Don´t know waht they made to the main armament.

I´don´t how many tanks were converted that way. I thnik I remember the conversions were made by the defunct company MOTO PECAS.

 

They also made several attempts to convert M-4 s into recovery vehcles, different from both M-31, M-32 or M-74´s. They basically took a turretless M-4 hull, put two hinges in the upper front for A frame, and a cable winch in the turret hole. Again, don´t know how many coversions werre made.

 

There was also, IRCC, a bridge layer conversion (they had the M-5 Staurt bridge layer as well).

 

So far I remember having read on a brazilian site (portuguese) called defesa.net.br or similar.

 

King Jester

 

Your answer is partialy correct.

 

In 1969 the army technical organization (DPET) took one Sherman and modified it by installing a MWM V-12 diesel engine with 406 metric HP.

 

This vehicle was then taken to the Biselli company where it received a HVSS suspension.

 

The work stoped there and laid dormant until 1977 whem DPET together with the Bernardini company designed a bridge laying system to be assembled on the Sherman hull, and to be designatedc as XLP-20. The matter stoped after drawings were ready - no prototype was built.

 

In 1983 the first prototype, was modified to became an anti mine vehicle, with the instalation of an Urdan roller. The work was done again with the the Bernardini company. The MWM engine was removed and a Scania DS-14 diesel engine assembled in its place.

 

The only series of vehicles that were produced was the recovery version. 11 were built by Moto Peças as described by King Jester.

 

So, the only M4's modified was: one prototype and 11 recovery vehicles.

 

Reg

[Vuk]

Thank you!

 

And on another subject o you happen to have the specs for the original Tamoyo?

[King Jester]

So, the only M4's modified was: one prototype and 11 recovery vehicles.

 

Thank you Reg! I vaguely remembered the article by defesa.net.br, and probably got it mentally mixed up with another article about M-5 Staurt conversions and the X-1 series. That and my poor portuguese.

 

There aren´t very many (indeed, I havne´t seen a single one) pictures of brazilian M-4´s with HVSS, and you gave the reason: only one was build!

 

I always liked/admired the ingenous work put into building X-1 and X-1A1/2, also the APC conversion of Stuarts (only one prototype?). Are X-1A´s still in use with the brazilian Army?

 

King Jester

[Reginaldo Bacchi]

Thank you Reg! I vaguely remembered the article by defesa.net.br, and probably got it mentally mixed up with another article about M-5 Staurt conversions and the X-1 series. That and my poor portuguese.

 

There aren´t very many (indeed, I havne´t seen a single one) pictures of brazilian M-4´s with HVSS, and you gave the reason: only one was build!

 

I always liked/admired the ingenous work put into building X-1 and X-1A1/2, also the APC conversion of Stuarts (only one prototype?). Are X-1A´s still in use with the brazilian Army?

 

King Jester

 

All the X series tanks have been fased out.

 

At the moment the 4 Tank Regiments have Leopard 1A1(Be) and M60s.

 

The Armored Cavalry Regiments (each with 2 tank companies and 2 armored infantry companies) have M41s.

 

If the purchase of the 240 Leopard 1A5 goes ahead, all regiments will have only Leopard 1s.

 

The M41s and M60s will be fased out.

 

Reg

[swerve]

...At the moment the 4 Tank Regiments have Leopard 1A1(Be) and M60s.

 

...If the purchase of the 240 Leopard 1A5 goes ahead, all regiments will have only Leopard 1s. ...

 

Reg

 

Reg,

 

are the Leopard 1s being upgraded in any way? And if the Leopard 1A5s are bought, is there a plan to bring all the Leopards to a common standard?

 

Paul

Edited March 27, 2007 by swerve

[Reginaldo Bacchi]

Reg,

 

are the Leopard 1s being upgraded in any way? And if the Leopard 1A5s are bought, is there a plan to bring all the Leopards to a common standard?

 

Paul

 

The Army up to now has not taken any decision on upgrading.

 

Reg

[Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo]

If the purchase of the 240 Leopard 1A5 goes ahead, all regiments will have only Leopard

 

I, Reg!

 

I have been following your work for quite a long time! Fortunately Portuguese is not a problem for a Spanish speaker!

 

I was under the impression the Leopard 1A5 purchase had proceed a few months ago

[LeoTanker]

If the purchase of the 240 Leopard 1A5 goes ahead, all regiments will have only Leopard 1s.

 

The M41s and M60s will be fased out.

 

Reg

 

Why Leo 1A5? There are houndreds of cheap second hand Leo2A4 around.. Weight issue?

[Reginaldo Bacchi]

I, Reg!

 

I have been following your work for quite a long time! Fortunately Portuguese is not a problem for a Spanish speaker!

 

I was under the impression the Leopard 1A5 purchase had proceed a few months ago

 

Yes Gorka, greetings.

 

 

I saw your messages at aeroespacial.

 

The Army bulletin some months ago said that they were holding discussions with Germany about purchase of 240 Leo 1A5 tanks. The Army never confirmed afterwards that the tanks had been bought.

 

The Army is very cautious about its informations. It goes step by step.

 

Reg

[Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo]

Why Leo 1A5? There are houndreds of cheap second hand Leo2A4 around.. Weight issue?

 

Brazil is a huges country and most of the terrain isn`t exactly tank friendly. After been in Argentina I fully understood why they ordered the TAM design as is and I guess the situation is rather similar in Brazil were a M41 can get places were Leo1 can`t and Leo 2 would never be able to reach. As far as I know (maybe Reginaldo can correct me) the M60A3 as been less succesful than the more primitive ex Belgian Leos 1 due to their bulk and weight.

 

And there`s already a Leo 1 logistical and training chain in country. Leo 2 may be cheap, but creating a support infraestructures isn`t!

[swerve]

The Army up to now has not taken any decision on upgrading.

 

Reg

 

Thanks

[swerve]

Why Leo 1A5? There are houndreds of cheap second hand Leo2A4 around.. Weight issue?

 

"Cheap" is a relative term. Ex-Bundeswehr Leopard 1A5 can be had for almost nothing. Shipping may be the biggest expense. Leopard 2A4 cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. 1A5 is much cheaper to operate, & (as has been said) they've already set up the support infrastructure.

 

There are the operational issues already mentioned, & anyway, none of the neighbours has anything better.

[Catalan]

What was Chile's reasoning for the Leopard 2A4? Isn't Chile constricted by similar terrain as Eastern Argentina (Andes Mountains)?

[Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo]

What was Chile's reasoning for the Leopard 2A4? Isn't Chile constricted by similar terrain as Eastern Argentina (Andes Mountains)?

 

The border with Peru is mostly covered by a hard soil desert, were Leopard 2 can operate mostly freely. Most of Brazilian territory is jungle or densely forested

[Reginaldo Bacchi]

Why Leo 1A5? There are houndreds of cheap second hand Leo2A4 around.. Weight issue?

 

When we at ENGESA started to work on the design of the Osorio MBT, we based ourselves on the Brazilian Army specification for its desired MBT. Two items were considered important: weight of 36 tons and width of 3.2 meters.

 

We decided not to follow the weight limit because we considered that it would throw us out of the world market. We stablished a target of 42 tons.

 

We followed the width limit.

 

Now the width of the Leopard 1 without skirts its less than 3.2 meters, and the weight is 42 tons >> almost exactly the Osorio specs.

 

The Leo 2 is 55 tons and the width is above the maximum the Army specified.

 

I BELIEVE that was the main reason for the decision to not buy the Leo 2, together with the fact that since they already had the Leo 1, it was desirable to maintain the same logistics.

 

Reg

[Reginaldo Bacchi]

As far as I know (maybe Reginaldo can correct me) the M60A3 as been less succesful than the more primitive ex Belgian Leos 1 due to their bulk and weight.

 

The Army did not want the M60. They refused the offer of this tank. The them president of Brazil Mr. Fernando Henrique Cardoso, who wanted to ingratiate himself with the US government, forced the Army to accept it.

 

If by the weight the Army is not happy with it, since it has Thermal Imaging sights, it is a great success as the only AFV in the Army who can fight at night.

 

In the 80s the Brazilian Marines bought about 12 Cascavels in the Iraqi Army configuration, with Avimo Laser Range Finder, Rank Pullin Controls SS122 day/night sight (catadioptric - image intensifying) for the gunner, and night sights for the commander and driver (also from Rank - image intensifying).

 

Reg

[Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo]

Now the width of the Leopard 1 without skirts its less than 3.2 meters, and the weight is 42 tons >> almost exactly the Osorio specs.

 

The Leo 2 is 55 tons and the width is above the maximum the Army specified.

 

I forgot the transportation question! When the Spanish Army originally laid the requeriments for Lince in the late 70s they wanted a top weight of 50tm. At that time even the M48 could only use a certain number of railroad lines for transportation and higher weight would have meanT (at that time) severe restrictions. Of course, they did not count with the fact the railroad net was massively updated in the 80s and now the class 70 Leopardo 2E enjoys more raildoad liberties than the M48 in the late 70s.

 

This is also a very importabnt constraint for Argentina and Brazil, for example.