Tests with German AP shell´s on US cases?

[Harry]

Are there any known tests with German AP shell´s mounted on US cases?

 

Maybe for a real comparison which AP rounds have the better penetration against armor.

As I know German artillery fired in the west captured US ammunition with their 105mm FH 18.

So I think mounting German Pz.Gr. on US 75mm cases from the M3 gun was no real problem and you get the best result when you will compare the effectiveness of the German and US AP rounds.

[capt_starlight]

Are there any known tests with German AP shell´s mounted on US cases?

 

Maybe for a real comparison which AP rounds have the better penetration against armor.

As I know German artillery fired in the west captured US ammunition with their 105mm FH 18.

So I think mounting German Pz.Gr. on US 75mm cases from the M3 gun was no real problem and you get the best result when you will compare the effectiveness of the German and US AP rounds.

 

 

Apparently British Workshops in Tobruk remanufactured ammunition using German AP shells with US cases for the Grant/Lees that had just arrived in time for Gazala (1942).

 

Have seen a reference to it somewhere (and it did appear in this site some time ago but could not find it on a quick search).

[superfractal]

Apparently British Workshops in Tobruk remanufactured ammunition using German AP shells with US cases for the Grant/Lees that had just arrived in time for Gazala (1942).

 

Have seen a reference to it somewhere (and it did appear in this site some time ago but could not find it on a quick search).

 

no not quite.

 

In nail Barr's "Pendulum of war", British workshops re cartridged M72 ap with german panzergrenate 39 cartiriges. As m72 ap had inferior performence than capped ammo against fha. How this effected performence against rha and how long this ammunition lasted is another matter.

 

I suppose they could have done it both ways but i have never heard of it happening.

[Harry]

Thank you both for your answers. Fine if you can give me nearer info about these tests.

 

Harry

[superfractal]

Thank you both for your answers. Fine if you can give me nearer info about these tests.

 

Harry

 

Unfortunatly there is no data on the test, or even if there was a test.

[C.G.Erickson]

Are there any known tests with German AP shell´s mounted on US cases?

 

Maybe for a real comparison which AP rounds have the better penetration against armor.

As I know German artillery fired in the west captured US ammunition with their 105mm FH 18.

So I think mounting German Pz.Gr. on US 75mm cases from the M3 gun was no real problem and you get the best result when you will compare the effectiveness of the German and US AP rounds.

Harry,

 

In Egypt the British started receiving the American Grant tank after Feb 42. The 75mm gun made necessary, a retraining in gunnery. The reason is that the gunnery practice more closely resembled artillery laying on than that of the flat shooting direct fire 2 lbers in use.

 

Problems with shooting the 75 was found in the familiarization training by the Brits.

First there was no range scale or clinometer. This was solved by filing range notches on the elevating hand wheel. Azimuth notches were also added along with improvised sighting vanes and bore sights. Hoods over the periscope sights had to be installed as the glare of the sun would obscure even looking through it.

 

Ammunition problems were even worse.

 

The HE ammo was mainly WW1 vintage, while a new HE round was being rushed into production in the US. There was a number of deaths from this deterioated ammo from premature detonations. The fuses were direct impact type which meant that fired from a flat trajectory gun instead of a high trajectory field artillery piece, the round would not detonate. Most of the time the HE round would just skip across the ground without exploding. A grazing type detonator was needed. The solution was to take the 90,000 fuses off of French HE shells from Syria and mate them to the US round. They had a grazing detonator. This was no problem as the 75mm was copied from the French WW1 gun, and the conversion went smoothly.

 

AP ammo was even worse. In tests in Cairo in March 42 the rushed into production interim round, the M72 was found to be variable in quality and broke up after impacting Face Hardened armor on the German Pz 3's and 4's. The M72 was monobloc construction, while what was needed was a capped projectile to crack the Face Hardened armor. The M61 APCBC round was a ways off, as it too was just beginning production. The M72 was ineffective against German tanks over 500 yards.

 

Both HE and AP rouunds had variable amounts of powder in the cartridges, and so all the rounds were dissassembled, the powder poured together and then carefully remeasured to get proper standard predicabile velocities.

 

An Australian officer, Major Northy, serving in the British Ordnance Corp suggested that they use the German AP ammo from the 50,000 tons of ammunition they had captured from the Germans. He checked with US Ordnance expert Major GB Jarrett on loan to the British with a contingent of US tankers who fought along side the Brits at this time. The project was greeted with enthusiasm.

 

The German projectile had larger diameter rotating bands and an explosive charge set off by a base detonated fuze. The detonating fuze was armed by projectile rotation. This was a concern as the projectile had to be chucked up in a lathe and spun so the rotating bands could be turned down to fit into the US 75. In a conversation I had with Dick Hunnicutt,(who knew GB Jarrett) Jarrett chucked up the first German projectile in a lathe in a repair truck. Everyone else stood a respectable distance away, and Jarrett successfully machined down the rotating bands. Work began in ernest.

 

A few rare M61 rounds were flown to Cairo and tested against the modified German projectile. They both could penetrate the front of a Pz 3 at 1000 yards. The surprise was the devastating effect of the Bursting charge of the German projectile. Insuring a crew kill or ammunition fire inside the target.

 

Middle East Headquarters gave approval and 15,000 of the 75mm AP Composite were made. 2,000 HE and Smoke rounds were also produced from German projectiles.

 

How many were used? About 6,000 were recaptured from the ammo dumps at Capuzzo by the Germans. So 9,000 were evidently issued and used.

 

In all the side by side comparison testing done by Aberdeen, between German projectiles and American projectiles. I have not found one suggestion of mating German projectiles onto US cartridges. The major complaint was that US guns could not produce muzzle velocities anywhere close to German Guns. There was one suggestion of firing a M61 APC through a German gun at German velocities so they could get a truer comparison.

 

Does this help?

 

C.G.

[Harry]

C.G.

 

Certainly help this. That is great info for me. You are always welcome with this kind of information.

 

many thanks to you

 

Harry

[jwduquette1]

Harry,

 

In Egypt the British started receiving the American Grant tank after Feb 42. The 75mm gun made necessary, a retraining in gunnery. The reason is that the gunnery practice more closely resembled artillery laying on than that of the flat shooting direct fire 2 lbers in use.

 

Problems with shooting the 75 was found in the familiarization training by the Brits.

First there was no range scale or clinometer. This was solved by filing range notches on the elevating hand wheel. Azimuth notches were also added along with improvised sighting vanes and bore sights. Hoods over the periscope sights had to be installed as the glare of the sun would obscure even looking through it.

 

Ammunition problems were even worse.

 

The HE ammo was mainly WW1 vintage, while a new HE round was being rushed into production in the US. There was a number of deaths from this deterioated ammo from premature detonations. The fuses were direct impact type which meant that fired from a flat trajectory gun instead of a high trajectory field artillery piece, the round would not detonate. Most of the time the HE round would just skip across the ground without exploding. A grazing type detonator was needed. The solution was to take the 90,000 fuses off of French HE shells from Syria and mate them to the US round. They had a grazing detonator. This was no problem as the 75mm was copied from the French WW1 gun, and the conversion went smoothly.

 

AP ammo was even worse. In tests in Cairo in March 42 the rushed into production interim round, the M72 was found to be variable in quality and broke up after impacting Face Hardened armor on the German Pz 3's and 4's. The M72 was monobloc construction, while what was needed was a capped projectile to crack the Face Hardened armor. The M61 APCBC round was a ways off, as it too was just beginning production. The M72 was ineffective against German tanks over 500 yards.

 

Both HE and AP rouunds had variable amounts of powder in the cartridges, and so all the rounds were dissassembled, the powder poured together and then carefully remeasured to get proper standard predicabile velocities.

 

An Australian officer, Major Northy, serving in the British Ordnance Corp suggested that they use the German AP ammo from the 50,000 tons of ammunition they had captured from the Germans. He checked with US Ordnance expert Major GB Jarrett on loan to the British with a contingent of US tankers who fought along side the Brits at this time. The project was greeted with enthusiasm.

 

The German projectile had larger diameter rotating bands and an explosive charge set off by a base detonated fuze. The detonating fuze was armed by projectile rotation. This was a concern as the projectile had to be chucked up in a lathe and spun so the rotating bands could be turned down to fit into the US 75. In a conversation I had with Dick Hunnicutt,(who knew GB Jarrett) Jarrett chucked up the first German projectile in a lathe in a repair truck. Everyone else stood a respectable distance away, and Jarrett successfully machined down the rotating bands. Work began in ernest.

 

A few rare M61 rounds were flown to Cairo and tested against the modified German projectile. They both could penetrate the front of a Pz 3 at 1000 yards. The surprise was the devastating effect of the Bursting charge of the German projectile. Insuring a crew kill or ammunition fire inside the target.

 

Middle East Headquarters gave approval and 15,000 of the 75mm AP Composite were made. 2,000 HE and Smoke rounds were also produced from German projectiles.

 

How many were used? About 6,000 were recaptured from the ammo dumps at Capuzzo by the Germans. So 9,000 were evidently issued and used.

 

In all the side by side comparison testing done by Aberdeen, between German projectiles and American projectiles. I have not found one suggestion of mating German projectiles onto US cartridges. The major complaint was that US guns could not produce muzzle velocities anywhere close to German Guns. There was one suggestion of firing a M61 APC through a German gun at German velocities so they could get a truer comparison.

 

Does this help?

 

C.G.

 

Good stuff Carey. Some interesting tid bits I had not read before.