Best Division size unit in WWII

[Redbeard]

Any bids for best Division sized units in WWII? I haven't got a definition of "best", and it will have to be relative as say an infantry and an armoured Division will be best under different conditions. But it will of course have to include training, morale, equipment, results and general utility (a highly specialised role IMHO being a negative factor).

 

To avoid starting this as a flame war let us start this nation by nation.

 

My try:

 

British Empire:

7th Armoured - started as professionals and achieved some good results, but appeared a little weary by war's end,

or 4th Indian - started out as professionals and always were the fighting was,

or 6th Australian - allways there and very tough.

 

USA:

Looking forward to hearing your opinions.

 

Italy:

Ariete - actually aquitted itself well in NA

 

Germany:

Grossdeutschland, started out as a elite regiment, and ended up a hardhitting PzGrenadier Division,

or Leibstandarte AH - started out as a spit and polish SS unit, but allways got the cream of both personel and equipment,

or Panzer Lehr - got the cream too, but only established in 1943.

 

Soviets:

? but sometimes armycorps units appear the equivalent of western Divisions.

 

Japan: ?

 

 

Regards

 

Steffen Redbeard

[67th Tigers]

Dupuy calculates the US 88th Infantry Division was the best formation in the US, and possibly all armies (but I find aspects of the QJM suspicious)

[Gabe]

How about the 3rd Infantry. 531 consecutive days in combat.

[Scott Cunningham]

As long as you main evaluation criteria is on level of suck they endured, then yeah, sure, 3ID it is.

[Scott Cunningham]

For the US there were a few standouts:

 

101st ABN, 82nd ABN, 4AD, 1st, 2nd MARDIV, 88th ID (according to DuPuy)

[Kensuke]

For the US, I'd go with the 101st Airborne.

 

The sheer amount of BS they were forced to endure makes them stand out. Dug in at Bastogne as a light infantry force was really not the best use of the unit, but they adapted and persevered. The downside is that they came into the war rather late.

 

3rd Infantry also endured a lot.

 

For similar reasons I'd also give props to British 1st Airborne. Arnhem was *NOT* their fault. Monty should have been sacked for that clusterfuck.

 

Agree with Italian Ariete (132nd Division). One of the few stand out Italian formations. A pitty for them they were armed with crap.

 

I also think 15th Panzer and 21st Panzer (formerly 5th Light) need mention. They were asked to perform superhuman feats under Rommel.

 

- John

[KingSargent]

3rd ID did more than just "endure," they performed as well.

 

4th Armored was reputedly the best of the US ADs.

 

I have a problem with the paras, because the divisions chopped and changed so much, with different regiments at various times. I am tempted to just treat the US Abn as a "pool" and say they were ALL good.

 

Chopping and changing TOEs also makes the British difficult to assess. As mentioned the 7th AD that fought in COMPASS was professional and outstanding, the later iterations seemed to slide as professionals were siphoned off and troops got tired. Probably 11th AD was better in NWE.

 

For UK infantry I like 50th Division. For paras I'd pick Gales' 6th over the 1st. For CW, th Indian was outstanding and professional throughout the war. 9th Aust did well.

 

Germany, add 60th Motorized, later 60th PG, later Feldherrnalle. 26th and 44th IDs had good records. I think Panzer Lehr's rep comes from its excessive (for Germany) equipment. It had what everybody was supposed to have. 11th Pz was quite good.

 

Italy, agree on Ariete, add Folgore.

 

Japan, 5th and 18th were outstanding in SE Asia, with 5th slightly the better of the two.

[DKTanker]

4th Armored was reputedly the best of the US ADs.

They definetly received the hype, arguably 6AD was the better unit. OTOH, one can't easily dismiss 1st, 2nd, and 3AD. 1AD usually is forgotten because it spent most of the war slogging up the Italian pennisula so missed the glamour of romping across the French countryside, breaking the seige of Bastogne, and then racing across southern Germany.

[RETAC21]

I am surprised nobody has mentioned the Fallschirmjäger division in its various iterations.

[Old Tanker]

There are all kinds of considerations. Various historians have sited many.

 

* The New Zealand Div. (2nd ?)

* The U.S. 3rd.

* The 1,2 and 11 Panzer.

* 101 A.B. or the 82nd A.B.

* 4 A.D. also 2 & 3 A.D.

* The Big Red 1 probably saved Bloody Omaha.

* The 2nd U.S. broke the back of Hitlers best Dec. 16-19 '44 in the BoB.

 

The 45th U.S. was a very solid N.G. div. paired up with the 3rd U.S. in many campaigns.

 

Terrible Terry Allen commanded the U.S. 1st and 104th the only U.S. divs. trained in night assaults. Both high quality dvs.

 

In the U.S. Army the div. quality all depended on the quality of the dv. commanders and varied greatly from poor to excellent.

[Rubberneck]

34th ID spent the most time in combat I believe. That has to count for something. Or not.

 

28th ID certainly earned their bloody bucket status again in WWII.

[DwightPruitt]

No Texans speaking up for the Texas National Army, i.e. the 36th Division?

[Sparviero]

No Texans speaking up for the Texas National Army, i.e. the 36th Division?

 

Well I know the story of at least one awnry Arkansas boy in this division. Family received a telegram that he was KIA at one point and no one believed a German bullet would actually be able to kill him and sure enough it proved true.

 

 

For the Italians I would nominate the Julia Alpini division. From Greece to Russia they were always on the short end of the stick. Otherwise Ariete, Trento and Trieste would be my choices. Folgore would be a sentimental favorite along with the GG.FF although neither of these really operated at true division levels.

[Brasidas]

I'm gonna go chauvanistic a bit, and say 1st Mar Div deserves a vote.

[Arminius]

The Fallschirmjäger had their glorius Moments, but only shot time ... ( Kreta, Albert Kanal ). Same for the US Paratroop units - brave, but short time combat engagements.

 

The exception is Monte Cassino, German side.

 

Regarding 44th ( German, ex Austrian ) ID "Hoch- und Deutschmeister": it was wiped out in Stalingrad. The unit which had to "show the name" afterwards was NOT the same one as before.

 

I second "Grossdeutschland", but it was very good equipped, like has been said for "Panzer Lehr". I would look at the variuos German PD´s, 3rd, 116th, 21st, aside from ethical standpoints, the SS Formations fought very fierce. There are so many fine PGD, I can´t call a superior one at the moment.

 

ANY German unit had stronger opponents to endure than ANY Allied units!, at least for longer times.

 

H

[Brummbaer]

For Italy, as it's been said, Ariete and the whole Alpini Corps in Russia, Folgore was excellent, but sadly fought only one battle.

 

For Germany I'd mention the 15th and 90th Panzergrenadiers: with average equipment they performed very well in Italy. And 1st Fallschirmjaeger also.

I agree on most of the others already said. No idea about soviets?

[Kenneth P. Katz]

The American 30th Infantry Divisino was highly regarded.

[SCFalken]

I'd say Das Reich, for the Germans.

 

The Big Red One for the US.

 

Guards Armored Division and 6th Airborne in a tossup for the British.

 

 

 

Falken

[DwightPruitt]

The American 30th Infantry Divisino was highly regarded.

Roosevelt's SS

[hammerlock]

The 1st Canadian Infantry Division. From Sicily to Moro River, to Ortona and the Hilter and Gothic line and NW Europe.

[Guest aevans]

The Fallschirmjäger had their glorius Moments, but only shot time ... ( Kreta, Albert Kanal ). Same for the US Paratroop units - brave, but short time combat engagements.

 

Ever heard of Ortona, Monte Casino, or Normandy?

[Guest aevans]

I'm gonna go chauvanistic a bit, and say 1st Mar Div deserves a vote.

 

1st MarDiv was the most frequently and arguably longest engaged, but I think the Marine Corps pretty much got uniform performance out of all of its divisions.

[T19]

The 1st Canadian Infantry Division. From Sicily to Moro River, to Ortona and the Hilter and Gothic line and NW Europe.

 

Oh yes the D Day Dodgers.

 

some good Regiments in that Div

[irregularmedic]

What about the U.S. 10th Mountain Divison?

 

It's been a long time since I read about them, but I seem to recall them having some considerable feats of arms, climbing and night assaults, and of course the hard fighting that was the Italian theatre. Darby led them after the Rangers didn't he?

 

And although IIRC the unit was smaller than divisional size the 1st Special Service Force I think deserves at least an honourable mention.

[KingSargent]

What about the U.S. 10th Mountain Divison?

 

It's been a long time since I read about them, but I seem to recall them having some considerable feats of arms, climbing and night assaults, and of course the hard fighting that was the Italian theatre. Darby led them after the Rangers didn't he?

 

And although IIRC the unit was smaller than divisional size the 1st Special Service Force I think deserves at least an honourable mention.

10th Mtn was good, but it didn't get into action until 1945 in a secondary theater against a worn-out enemy. Be interesting to compare them to an early-war German Mountain division.

 

For the USSR, it's hard to pick out divisions, since they were mere cogs in the mass machine for the Sovs. One unit that dun gud was 3rd Mech Corps under Katukov. Actually, anything under Katukov dun gud.