Russian 125mm APFSDS ammunition

[Vasiliy Fofanov]

This is what FDF's manual says about BM-15:

 

Interesting. There are some discrepancies that can be explained I believe, others don't work out at a glance...

 

Penetrator mesurements, mm : 440mm x 44 mm (rod) / x 125 mm (wing and sabot)

That's steel body dimensions. 44mm is the diameter in the thickest part of the body (immediately above the sabot). Along the length of the body it is anywhere between 28 and 44 mm.

 

 

- Penetrator weight, steel, g : 5900 g

 

This is actually full projectile (fins, cap and tracer) weight with sabot.

 

Penetration at 2000m, 30°/90°: 150mm / 450mm

 

That's fantastically high. Looks like penetration at point-blank to me...

[Guest bojan]

Official Yugo data for:

M88 APFSDS (BM-15) - 150mm@60deg@2000m

M88 HEAT (BK-14M) - 480mm@0deg, 240mm@60deg

[CV9030FIN]

That's steel body dimensions. 44mm is the diameter in the thickest part of the body (immediately above the sabot). Along the length of the body it is anywhere between 28 and 44 mm.

Propably right. Allthough officially round is called "125-44mm"

This is actually full projectile (fins, cap and tracer) weight with sabot.

My mistake, bad tranlation from Finnish...I will edit my post.

That's fantastically high. Looks like penetration at point-blank to me...

Do you have any proofs or test results? My info is from FDF's manual translated from Russian manual. So either Russians tend to exaggerate penetration figures for their customers or you've got wrong info. Does Bojan have figures for BM-15 Penetration at 2000m at 90°?

[Guest bojan]

Does Bojan have figures for BM-15 Penetration at 2000m at 90°?

 

Nope.

[Vasiliy Fofanov]

Do you have any proofs or test results?

 

Well, what can I say. I copied 310 out of a firing table, but it was years ago and I can't post the original. Can I point out that the figure of 450mm of a mostly steel 12:1 round at an impact velocity of 1500 m/s is seriously above what publicly available models predict.

 

Unless of course the penetration criterion is very generous... like "can penetrate this much if Allah *really* wishes it"...

[CV9030FIN]

Well, what can I say. I copied 310 out of a firing table, but it was years ago and I can't post the original. Can I point out that the figure of 450mm of a mostly steel 12:1 round at an impact velocity of 1500 m/s is seriously above what publicly available models predict.

 

Unless of course the penetration criterion is very generous... like "can penetrate this much if Allah *really* wishes it"...

 

...So this leaves us prove that Russians tend to exaggerate penetration figures for their customers! (I don't concider it to be odd: they didn't wan't to sell us their newest ones like BM-42 in 1986 so they exaggered old ammos it perfomance a little bit so customer would be satisfied - did this work? Nope. FDF did know all the time limitations of our APFSDS-T ammo )

[Jussi Saari]

...So this leaves us prove that Russians tend to exaggerate penetration figures for their customers! (I don't concider it to be odd: they didn't wan't to sell us their newest ones like BM-42 in 1986 so they exaggered old ammos it perfomance a little bit so customer would be satisfied - did this work? Nope. FDF did know all the time limitations of our APFSDS-T ammo )

 

I wonder if it might have been a matter of simple typo, 350->450, either in original or translation? Because not only the 450mm looks high but also the difference between perpendicular and slanted impact seems quite big...

[Vasiliy Fofanov]

I don't concider it to be odd: they didn't wan't to sell us their newest ones like BM-42 in 1986 so they exaggered old ammos it perfomance a little bit so customer would be satisfied - did this work? Nope. FDF did know all the time limitations of our APFSDS-T ammo )

 

This seems like a stretch to me. But indeed the level of 450mm penetration was only achieved with BM42, which is to BM15 what a PC is to an abacus (both in complexity and cost...)

 

The typo possibility does exist, either in performance or in range at which it is achieved (though one wonders how could a typo in such a fundamental characteristic remain without correction...)

[Vasiliy Fofanov]

Let me try to supply a somewhat sideways argument why I believe 450mm is way too high. Like I said I couldn't squirrel away the BM15 FT, I do however have an FT for BM1 round for 100mm T-12 smoothbore ATG. BM1 round is 3380g, also equipped with WC slug, is 42mm in-flight caliber, has impact velocity of 1510 m/s at 500m and penetrates 230mm at this range. BM15 round has similar shape and elongation, has the same impact velocity at 2000m, and only weighs 15% more. Isn't it incredible then that it somehow manages to penetrate TWICE AS MUCH if 450mm figure is to be believed? Clearly this is impossible...

[CV9030FIN]

Let me try to supply a somewhat sideways argument why I believe 450mm is way too high. Like I said I couldn't squirrel away the BM15 FT, I do however have an FT for BM1 round for 100mm T-12 smoothbore ATG. BM1 round is 3380g, also equipped with WC slug, is 42mm in-flight caliber, has impact velocity of 1510 m/s at 500m and penetrates 230mm at this range. BM15 round has similar shape and elongation, has the same impact velocity at 2000m, and only weighs 15% more. Isn't it incredible then that it somehow manages to penetrate TWICE AS MUCH if 450mm figure is to be believed? Clearly this is impossible...

 

Your Probably right. Don't shoot the messinger: I am just referring "official figures"

 

Anyhow, said Russians what ever they said about BM-15's performance, FDF knew all along that T-72M1 with BM-15 had very very hard times to get peneteration from front if countered similar T-72M1. This fact had enormous affect to our armor tactics in 1990's. This fact also was (along poor night fighting capability) main cause for T-72M1 modernization project whitch started in early 1990's. One solution could have been be similar to that done with T-55M's: as Russians were not willing to sell better ammunition to us we boughted it from MECAR.

[Guest bojan]

Yugo data for M88 @ 2000m:

150mm@60deg

330mm@0deg

[Vasiliy Fofanov]

Yugo data for M88 @ 2000m:

150mm@60deg

330mm@0deg

 

Ahh. So I am pretty close to Yugoslavian sources on vertical penetration then, the small divergence is well explainable by slightly different criterion or target plate properties. The slanted impact difference is big, but I think I can explain it. As I understand the early 125mm rounds had a tendency to ricochet. Since the Russian penetration criterion is pretty strict it was especially harsh on those rounds, because the chance of ricochet only dropped below the acceptance threshold when the plate was seriously overmatched. So the certified penetration of 120mm/60o means that the round can easily penetrate quite a bit more than that, it's just that the chance of ricochet on a thicker plate prevents it from doing it on sufficiently large percentage of cases (sufficiently large here being 80% if not more...) The Yugoslavians may well have used a slightly softer plate or slightly friendlier criterion which could make a very large difference...

[Guest bojan]

...The Yugoslavians may well have used a slightly softer plate or slightly friendlier criterion which could make a very large difference...

 

Vas, as far as I know requirement is 80% - ie 8/10 rounds fired on test plate have to penetrate. Anyway today I learned that M88 is not exact copy of BM-15 - penetration cap is made from diferent materials (no exact composition unfortunetly) to prevent ricoshetes at angles between 60 and 70 deg. That may acount for a noticably diferent penetration @ 60deg.

[Vasiliy Fofanov]

Anyway today I learned that M88 is not exact copy of BM-15 - penetration cap is made from diferent materials (no exact composition unfortunetly) to prevent ricoshetes at angles between 60 and 70 deg. That may acount for a noticably diferent penetration @ 60deg.

 

Yes, this can definitely help a lot on slanted hits...

[Ssnake]

With respect to the canister round...

Vasiliy, do you have a bit more info about the 3USh round or 3Sh projectile?

Is it more of a "Beehive" round with programmable air burst detonation, or more like the M1028 "shotgun" type?

 

It seems as if a "500m lethal range" claim is optimistic, given the muzzle velocity which is given as 400m/s less than the M1028s and the not-so-great aerodynamic properties of pellets in general, as well as the fact that they're much lighter than the M1028's. Even darts wouldn't do better, I think.

[Vasiliy Fofanov]

Vasiliy, do you have a bit more info about the 3USh round or 3Sh projectile?

 

That's all I have unfortunately.

 

It seems as if a "500m lethal range" claim is optimistic, given the muzzle velocity which is given as 400m/s less than the M1028s and the not-so-great aerodynamic properties of pellets in general, as well as the fact that they're much lighter than the M1028's. Even darts wouldn't do better, I think.

 

First off, FWIW it actually says 200 to 500 (and I don't know what effect exactly either lower or upper bound stand for). As far as being optimistic, I don't immediately see why. This is more or less equivalent in weight and velocity to Swedish 4.5mm bullet for MKR rifle, which had good flesh penetration even out to kilometer I think?

[Przezdzieblo]

Great work, waiting for other updates

[jwduquette1]

That's all I have unfortunately.

First off, FWIW it actually says 200 to 500 (and I don't know what effect exactly either lower or upper bound stand for). As far as being optimistic, I don't immediately see why. This is more or less equivalent in weight and velocity to Swedish 4.5mm bullet for MKR rifle, which had good flesh penetration even out to kilometer I think?

 

It's a question of velocity drop over distance. A spitzer obviously is a much lower drag shape than a shrapnel fragment.

[Vasiliy Fofanov]

It's a question of velocity drop over distance. A spitzer obviously is a much lower drag shape than a shrapnel fragment.

 

I understand this, but it's not fragments we are talking about. I see nothing impossible in some of the preformed projectiles maintaining letality at 500m...

[jwduquette1]

I understand this, but it's not fragments we are talking about. I see nothing impossible in some of the preformed projectiles maintaining letality at 500m...

 

Neither do I -- given the right parameters. But you indicate a 1.26g fragment or element -- whatever -- (that's about 19.5-grains). This is a small fragment and if it is indeed canister being fired at V0=1000m/s the velocity drop of such a fragment is considerable over a very short distance.

 

Is it really canister; or is it shrapnel? Moreover is it a big shotgun round, or are the fragments obtaining their intial energy from a bursting charge + remaining shell velocity.

Edited February 19, 2007 by jwduquette1

[Vasiliy Fofanov]

Is it really canister; or is it shrapnel? Moreover is it a big shotgun round, or are the fragments obtaining their intial energy from a bursting charge.

 

My understanding it is canister. But I never saw the round nor FT or anything, so aren't sure.

[Ssnake]

...plus, bullets get rifle spin to stabilize them in flight so they keep in their aerodynamical optimal orientation. A pellet or fragment is inevitably bound to tumble. If it is a non-spherical shape, tumbling will make air drag much worse. And if it is a sphere, then tumbling doesn't matter but it sucks (quite literally) in general.

[m4a1]

Polish soruces say 330 or 340 mm @ 2 km @ 0 deg.

EDIT: Post is about BM-15 of course. I am sorry I did a wrong quote.

Edited February 20, 2007 by m4a1

[Ssnake]

Polish soruces say 330 or 340 mm @ 2 km @ 0 deg.

Different 3Sh projectile. I'm talking canister rounds here, not armor piercing rounds. The day an anti-personnel rounds' fragments or pellets can penetrate in excess of 10mm RHAe we need to talk about overengineering.

[Guest bojan]

Different 3Sh projectile ...

 

I think he was talking about BM-15, but hit a wrong quote button.

 

Anyway about combat employment of the 125mm shrapnel round - I have a rummor that it was used on few ocasions in Croatia, 1991. Of course there could be confusion for a 100mm or 90mm shrapnel, as both were in service (for T-55A and M-36/M-47, but not widely isued) as a person that passed rummor was not realy knowledgable about tanks.

Edited February 19, 2007 by bojan