Windows Vista

[m1a1mg]

No one is arguing against that.

You and I certainly aren't, but there are many who will.

[Ivanhoe]

People have spoken of MS's demise for years. Thing is, most computer users are stupid and lazy. Corporate America will always need functional employees. Apple and Linux are just too different for most folks for major corporations to take the plunge.

 

But if Vista turns out as bad as it seems to be, those employees will be decreasingly functional while their IT departments wrestle with hardware and DRM problems, license managing, etc.

 

There are examples out there of entire businesses that function without Windows or Mac, and they seem to be happy and getting everything done that needs doing. The corporate world (can't just say Corporate America these days; we're globalized, baby) has been taking the path of least resistance rather than try something that seems abnormal. They've been there before; it was called the IBM mainframe. Many resisted, but the business case for minis became overwhelming.

[Garth]

Soooooo, who is going to do the upgrade? Who is going to be a beta tester for Microsoft? I am uneasy about the DRM issues with Vista:

 

The question for me is: why do I need it?

 

Of the PCs I own and use on a regular basis, four are running 98R2 and one is running XP/SP2. I have one printserver box (486 DX2/66) that I turn on only a few times a year that's still running 95. They all suit my needs and the needs of my household just fine. I imagine that the next new machine I buy will have it ... but that probably won't be for at least another year yet.

 

--Garth

[Ivanhoe]

I stopped by CompUSA to pick up a DVD writer, and took a quick look at the Vista display. They had Vista loaded on several new laptops. From what I saw, it'll be another 2 years before graphics engines have caught up with the bloated GUI.

[maxh]

Just finished helping a friend set up his brand new HP, Vista Home is standard on it. A few quick thoughts on it.

 

The boot-up time from POST to log-in menu is about the same as an unoptimized XP boot but the log-in and the loading of background programs is somewhat faster and seems a lot more organized. There even more system processes running in the background and it's much more of a memory hog than XP. Expect a 5% to 10% performance drop in a top system, if your running 1024 or less expect even more, this really thing wants 2 gigs of RAM.

 

Looking at the interface Apple probably has grounds to sue M$. The transparency is a cute trick but nothing original. The dashboard is a straight rip-off of OSX.

 

A lot of older programs do not work right, watch out if you use legacy software, especially, games crypto or security. The new security measures also severely limit older games, crashes when trying to save. Vista's security system seems to really hate programs that require low level access to the Hard Disk. Any old program that tries to write a file will bring up a window complaining about it.

 

The OS is even naggier than XP, startup barrages you with system status messages and for the first few boots nags you about everything your programs do. Apparently the new firewall doesn't do a good job of inventorying what is safe and what isn't

 

If you use NVIDIA graphics the current drivers are barely useable and missing a bunch of features. HP's printer drivers are also MIA or not working right.

 

A lot of the features promised by M$ for Vista are missing. WinFS is MIA (NTFS's replacement), the file search engine while faster doesn't seem to be the new wonder system they were promising, just a rehashed version of the old one. I can hang it the same ways as the XP one and it still uses a load of system resources. But it looks like they wrote some lovely new DRM all for you. I suspect that's what the performance hit is from. Expect to see a lot more of Windows Genuine Advantage, the stupid thing scans constantly and God help you if you replace your NIC card, Video Card, DVD-ROM or upgrade your MB drivers.

 

DX10 is a joke, no launch titles, NVIDIA's DX10 wonder card has been castrated by the buggy driver support and ATI's part has been delayed again. More than likely it will take a while for developers to get comfortable with DX10 so expect to see a lot of games that look just as good in DX9.

 

So far not impressed, I'll stick with XP until the 2 year refresh comes out with the features I'm interested in.

[m1a1mg]

Funny, Newegg is offering freebies if you buy Vista. A repeat of Windows ME?

[DesertFox]

What does Vista fix that was wrong with XP?

 

Just upgraded to XP on my desktop about eight months ago and laptop is still running 98SE

Edited March 10, 2007 by DesertFox

[EvanDP]

What does Vista fix that was wrong with XP?

 

The small but growing number of consumers that haven't upgraded to XP or have switched to OSX and Linux.

[m1a1mg]

I got a free copy of Vista for the Sony laptop I bought in January. Vista is OK. Not great by any means. The main thing I notice is all the cute shit that goes with it. I'm not much on cute. I like functional.

[m1a1mg]

I suppose Vista will become the new ME. The Longhorn Beta 1 is due in June.

[Guest aevans]

My first impression is that Vista is heavy on security (which is good) and graphically it looks like it's set up for old people. Right up my alley. It was very easy to set up a network here at home

 

I hate it when it asks me to authorize opening up a Control Panel view when I'm already logged-in as the administrative user. You'd think the security model would be smart enough to check who the current user is and what he has access to, then just let him do stuff he's authorized to do, without asking him if he really wants to. Anybody have a clue how to shut this "feature" off?

[Guest aevans]

Even though Win2k Server was replaced by 2003 Server and Win2k Workstation was replaced by XP, it seems Microsoft will provide basic security updates thru 2010. New versions of stuff like IE will no longer be available. This raises the question of how long folks can stick with XP.

 

If Microsoft doesn't get their act together, I foresee a lot of businesses going the route of Linux client/server systems with almost all apps delivered to end users via a web interface. The hardware and software demands for just doing basic desktop computing are far outstripping what's needed to perform the required tasks.

 

Predicted for over a decade now, has never come to pass, nor is it likely to. My college CS department was heavily Linux flavored, and I still think Linux is a joke as an end user OS, no matter what kind of GUI sugar you put on top of it. It's just too technically oriented, and the so-called Open Source community is too arrogant and insular to ever invest the time and resources that either Apple or MS has to create a GUI that covers all of the bases that the average user needs covered.

 

I will agree that a lot of databased applications will be delivered by web browser technology in the future -- there are just too many good business reasons not to. But that is not the same thing as saying that those browsers will be running in a Linux environment. Standard productivity apps require too much interactivity to ever be viable over the network, no matter what some guru may have whispered in your ear about application servers. And as long as productivity remains local, the OS is going to have to be keyed to the average hourly clerical employee, not to what some IT geek thinks is the perfect Linux setup for accessing the company intranet.

[Guest aevans]

The small but growing number of consumers that haven't upgraded to XP or have switched to OSX and Linux.

 

There's a limit to how large that population will grow. That limit is the frustration factor of working with an OS that's designed by, for, and in the image of geeks (Linux) and working with a GUI that is unprofitable for most development organizations to target (OSX).

[Guest aevans]

Thing is, most computer users are stupid and lazy.

 

No -- most computer users have just not bought-in to the "fiddle with my technology" culture that the geeks of the world tried (an still try, in the case of commercialized Linux) to foist off on them. They want computers to be communications, productivity, and entertainment appliances, not soul and time eating personal science projects.

 

The majority of such users are in fact highly intelligent, extremely motivated, active persons. They just want computers to work, without having to worry about why or how. Not because they are lazy or stupid, but because they have better things to do. MS figured this out, and though they are far from perfect, they do a better job addressing the needs of the vast majority of users (and developers who have better things to do than geekify with EMACS modes and command line interfaced compilers) than anybody else.

[m1a1mg]

No -- most computer users have just not bought-in to the "fiddle with my technology" culture that the geeks of the world tried (an still try, in the case of commercialized Linux) to foist off on them. They want computers to be communications, productivity, and entertainment appliances, not soul and time eating personal science projects.

 

The majority of such users are in fact highly intelligent, extremely motivated, active persons. They just want computers to work, without having to worry about why or how. Not because they are lazy or stupid, but because they have better things to do. MS figured this out, and though they are far from perfect, they do a better job addressing the needs of the vast majority of users (and developers who have better things to do than geekify with EMACS modes and command line interfaced compilers) than anybody else.

Bullshit. Are you talking about some other country?

 

Geek Squad here at Best Buy has a two week waiting list to assist customers in transferring files from their old computer to the new one they just bought from Best Buy. It only costs $100. Pure fucking laziness or stupidity.

[nitflegal]

Bullshit. Are you talking about some other country?

 

Geek Squad here at Best Buy has a two week waiting list to assist customers in transferring files from their old computer to the new one they just bought from Best Buy. It only costs $100. Pure fucking laziness or stupidity.

 

Actually, I think a lot of it is the same reason person hire handymen or plumbers. How often does the average person transfer from one HD to another? If they screw up something due to inexperience they lose the whole kit and kaboodle. Think about it; you've spent many hours updating Quicken, sorting your digital photos and home movies, each kid has their school reports in their folder, etc. You've got a printed out how-to from the internet and you're going to need to buy $20-30 worth of cables anyway. For most, it's simply not worth the risk or the trouble.

 

The average person, even those who are smart, wants the computer to come out of the box and walk them through the setup. The computer is a tool or appliance, not an interest. You could spend hours educating yourself and tinkering or you could give Best Buy an extra $100 and just bring the thing in for them to fix or upgrade for the next two years.

 

Matt

[Guest aevans]

Bullshit. Are you talking about some other country?

 

Geek Squad here at Best Buy has a two week waiting list to assist customers in transferring files from their old computer to the new one they just bought from Best Buy. It only costs $100. Pure fucking laziness or stupidity.

 

Does the average doctor or businessman try to fix his own car -- even something simple like an oil change or brake service -- or does he hire it done? Is that "lazy", or is it just that they value their time in such a way that they'd rather pay to have it done rather than working on the car for a couple of hours on Saturday morning? (Not to mention that having somebody who presumably knows how to do it is usually smarter and less expensive in the long run than doing it yourself.)

 

Computers are no different -- they're just appliances to a lot of people, and you pay to have the appliance service guy do it, rather than do it yourself. In my experience, for every truly stupid or lazy computer user, there are ten DIYers who are nothing but arrogant, self-important time and money wasters.

[Ivanhoe]

Predicted for over a decade now, has never come to pass, nor is it likely to. My college CS department was heavily Linux flavored, and I still think Linux is a joke as an end user OS, no matter what kind of GUI sugar you put on top of it. It's just too technically oriented, and the so-called Open Source community is too arrogant and insular to ever invest the time and resources that either Apple or MS has to create a GUI that covers all of the bases that the average user needs covered.

 

I generally agree with your assessment of Linux on the desktop for general users, though of course its going to stay strong in the developer and science/engineering communities. But there seems to be a perceptible sea change in the Linux community, or perhaps a fork. There is a growing camp of enthusiasts bent on making Linux easier, in opposition to the elitist crowd. Its certainly not inevitable, but I think its entirely possible that the user friendly Linux crowd will get to the point where they just have to replace X, and after the civil war is over and the horses burned I think there will be real progress made. Now whether they will catch up to MS and Apple, who knows. My feeling is that a lot of professed faithful, when faced with the schism, will find themselves siding with the New Testament apostles. Can't think of any more metaphors to throw in the stew.

 

And if the GUI wrapping Linux just provides basic apps and a good browser, then webbed apps can provide all the needed functionality without requiring high school dropouts to wrestle with Excel macros.

 

I will agree that a lot of databased applications will be delivered by web browser technology in the future -- there are just too many good business reasons not to. But that is not the same thing as saying that those browsers will be running in a Linux environment. Standard productivity apps require too much interactivity to ever be viable over the network, no matter what some guru may have whispered in your ear about application servers. And as long as productivity remains local, the OS is going to have to be keyed to the average hourly clerical employee, not to what some IT geek thinks is the perfect Linux setup for accessing the company intranet.

 

My theory, though, is that the majority of users in the work environment need only extremely limited productivity apps (i.e. MS-Office). Sure, white collar people doing real IP work need those things, but the vast majority of businesses have people who just use PCs for e-mail, diddling with the accounting/inventory program, calendaring, and POS operations. The average salesdroid, paper pusher, or line supervisor doesn't need animated slide transitions or any of that crap. I figure the Office user of 2015 is going to be the archetypical power user, maybe 20% or less of the total desktop population. Rolling out Office to the bottom half of the bell curve is not going to improve productivity I don't think.

 

Now, I don't believe the distant application server concept is particularly good either. Every hiccup in DNS service could dump the session into the bit bucket. The rational solution, methinks, is a return to the minicomputer concept, more or less. Mostly thin clients connected to a departmental server, with loaded PCs given to those who really need them. Seems to me that admin can still be contracted out, dunno about Win2k3 but Linux/Unix one can do most of what needs doing thru the firewall using slogin (yes, I realize tunneled X sessions suck, but Real Men use the CLI anyway...).

[APF]

..."extremely limited productivity" apps (i.e. MS-Office)...

 

second that. If I'd been given refunds for the time spend on figuring out *why* word chose to reformat/replace something the way it did (and which differed significantly from the way I, the imbecilic user, happened to want it) I could've lived from the income.

 

Having said that, IMHO the linux community lacks some sort of discussion about the goal they want to achive. Just now the copies (sorry about the word) of the (in)famous MS apps look like a 'I've go a longer one' (read featuritis) contest: 'MS got double underlines - bah! Us got double underlines AND double colourchanges at letter level, OUR text style box needs at least an 19' screen to be displayed properly, now counter THAT!' I whish someone would write a more streamlined word processor - or claris (now apple) works wouldn't be discontinued, preferably with a working spreadsheet

 

Or am I the only one who basically wants/has to type text, maybe some italics or bold letters, subscript, superscript - but thats it. I can do really well without light red letters on a white screen (or dark red ones on a black screen), rainbow colours changing with time seem somehow gettting lost in the printing process and I'm really reluctant about using a word processor for designing webpages.

 

Sigh, greetings!

Edited May 24, 2007 by APF

[Guest aevans]

I generally agree with your assessment of Linux on the desktop for general users, though of course its going to stay strong in the developer and science/engineering communities. But there seems to be a perceptible sea change in the Linux community, or perhaps a fork. There is a growing camp of enthusiasts bent on making Linux easier, in opposition to the elitist crowd. Its certainly not inevitable, but I think its entirely possible that the user friendly Linux crowd will get to the point where they just have to replace X, and after the civil war is over and the horses burned I think there will be real progress made. Now whether they will catch up to MS and Apple, who knows. My feeling is that a lot of professed faithful, when faced with the schism, will find themselves siding with the New Testament apostles. Can't think of any more metaphors to throw in the stew.

 

Sounds like a lot of wishful thinking to me. In fact it sounds like the same wishful thinking that has surrounded Linux sine the turn of the century. "This time, they'll really get it right." Uh-huh...and the check's in the mail, I won't cu...

 

And if the GUI wrapping Linux just provides basic apps and a good browser, then webbed apps can provide all the needed functionality without requiring high school dropouts to wrestle with Excel macros.

 

My theory, though, is that the majority of users in the work environment need only extremely limited productivity apps (i.e. MS-Office). Sure, white collar people doing real IP work need those things, but the vast majority of businesses have people who just use PCs for e-mail, diddling with the accounting/inventory program, calendaring, and POS operations. The average salesdroid, paper pusher, or line supervisor doesn't need animated slide transitions or any of that crap. I figure the Office user of 2015 is going to be the archetypical power user, maybe 20% or less of the total desktop population. Rolling out Office to the bottom half of the bell curve is not going to improve productivity I don't think.

 

Now, I don't believe the distant application server concept is particularly good either. Every hiccup in DNS service could dump the session into the bit bucket. The rational solution, methinks, is a return to the minicomputer concept, more or less. Mostly thin clients connected to a departmental server, with loaded PCs given to those who really need them. Seems to me that admin can still be contracted out, dunno about Win2k3 but Linux/Unix one can do most of what needs doing thru the firewall using slogin (yes, I realize tunneled X sessions suck, but Real Men use the CLI anyway...).

 

All of this is way too corporate centered. Most people work in small businesses where one, or two, or a few desktops are the norm. People don't do narrowly focussed drone jobs, they do a little bit of everything. Every workstation needs a word processor and spreadsheet at a minimum, and generally several industry-specific apps as well. Your department server model simply doesn't accomodate that market. And a lot of the strictly data entry jobs are being automated out of existence with improved B2B and B2C data communications. I think it much more likely that most people in the future with a computer workstation will be doing more than just data entry or retrieval.

[Ivanhoe]

Sounds like a lot of wishful thinking to me. In fact it sounds like the same wishful thinking that has surrounded Linux sine the turn of the century. "This time, they'll really get it right." Uh-huh...and the check's in the mail, I won't cu...

All of this is way too corporate centered. Most people work in small businesses where one, or two, or a few desktops are the norm. People don't do narrowly focussed drone jobs, they do a little bit of everything. Every workstation needs a word processor and spreadsheet at a minimum, and generally several industry-specific apps as well. Your department server model simply doesn't accomodate that market. And a lot of the strictly data entry jobs are being automated out of existence with improved B2B and B2C data communications. I think it much more likely that most people in the future with a computer workstation will be doing more than just data entry or retrieval.

 

Folks working at POS stations, stockrooms, etc have no need for Word or Excel. In fact, one of the scenarios I have in mind for the departmental server is not the corporate environment but Bubba's Garage (almost literally; the garage where I take my Camaro is owned by a feller named Bubba). Their office technology consists of a phone and an electromechanical cash register. No answering machine. A place like that could certainly use a PC at the POS, a couple of thin clients out in the shop so the mechanics can read DVD manuals, order parts, and schedule time. A fencing contractor I do a little business with has PCs but they're maintly still running SneakerNet; along with a POS connected to an accounting program, they need web access for e-mail and parts ordering, and they need timekeeping for their hourlies. They might need one general workstation with Word and Excel for doing written estimates. My general practitioner finally computerized a bit, they have PCs in some of their exam rooms now, networked to a records server. Again, no need for Word or Excel, except for one or two stations in the front office. Their records software is 95% of their computing, it appears to be C/S but could easily be a web app.

 

In fact, given HIPAA, the health care community would be smart to move as much data as humanly possible off the desktop and onto servers.

[Guest aevans]

Folks working at POS stations, stockrooms, etc have no need for Word or Excel. In fact, one of the scenarios I have in mind for the departmental server is not the corporate environment but Bubba's Garage (almost literally; the garage where I take my Camaro is owned by a feller named Bubba). Their office technology consists of a phone and an electromechanical cash register. No answering machine. A place like that could certainly use a PC at the POS, a couple of thin clients out in the shop so the mechanics can read DVD manuals, order parts, and schedule time. A fencing contractor I do a little business with has PCs but they're maintly still running SneakerNet; along with a POS connected to an accounting program, they need web access for e-mail and parts ordering, and they need timekeeping for their hourlies. They might need one general workstation with Word and Excel for doing written estimates. My general practitioner finally computerized a bit, they have PCs in some of their exam rooms now, networked to a records server. Again, no need for Word or Excel, except for one or two stations in the front office. Their records software is 95% of their computing, it appears to be C/S but could easily be a web app.

 

In fact, given HIPAA, the health care community would be smart to move as much data as humanly possible off the desktop and onto servers.

 

Ohhh...I see where your going. Thing is, hardware is so cheap, and, properly configured, Windows is such a simple and reliable general purpose OS (yes, I said that, and all religious convictions aside, it's generally true), that the Windows PC dominates many of these applications. Much of POS, almost all of the small to medium practice medical/dental scheduling/records/billing, and most of other industries' specialty software is targetted at Windows, without very many (if any) development organizations interested in developing for or porting to whatever-X. Even in situations where you want cheap database servers, applications have plugins that allow the data to be offloaded onto linux boxes running MySQL or PostgreSQL, with the apps still running as Windows forms apps or web apps using IE as the client. (I know for a fact, because it's what I do every day, that web developers prefer targetting IE when they can, because the JavaScript and CSS implementations are more reliable at runtime, which is important if you offload a lot of your presentation layer maintenance and data entry validation on the client.)

Edited May 25, 2007 by aevans

[Stevely]

Folks working at POS stations, stockrooms, etc have no need for Word or Excel. In fact, one of the scenarios I have in mind for the departmental server is not the corporate environment but Bubba's Garage (almost literally; the garage where I take my Camaro is owned by a feller named Bubba).

 

If by Bubba you mean McPherson's Garage in Poquoson - well, that Bubba is the bee's knees and he runs the best garage in Tidewater. Our family take our cars to him, though I haven't been able to with my last two... it's getting harder for shops like his to do repair and maintenance on the newest vehicles. Pity, haven't found a dealership yet that wasn't out to rob me.

[Ivanhoe]

If by Bubba you mean McPherson's Garage in Poquoson - well, that Bubba is the bee's knees and he runs the best garage in Tidewater. Our family take our cars to him, though I haven't been able to with my last two... it's getting harder for shops like his to do repair and maintenance on the newest vehicles. Pity, haven't found a dealership yet that wasn't out to rob me.

 

Bingo. Depending on what you need done, appts can take from a week to two weeks. In the last year he has gotten a little better, maybe he's hired more guys?

 

When I replaced my water pump a couple of years ago, I took it to McPherson's to get the cooling system pressure checked. Not only did they do a pressure check, they put the car up on the lift with the engine running and watched for leaks. All for ten bucks. Imagine asking a car dealership to do that.

[m1a1mg]

What's the latest on Vista? I'm thinking of buying a new machine and have the option the get Vista or XP, but the XP machine is less configurable.