USS Alaska VS the Graf Spee

[Tiornu]

Hornet was not unarmored, I assure you.

[Scott Cunningham]

She sure took a beating before going down, armor or not

[Guest Sargent]

Originally posted by Tiornu:

Reno took two torpedoes?

 

One in the engine rooms that broke her back. That was when she displaced over 20,000 tons. She took another in the stern a few days later on the way home. She survived both.

 

BuShips estimated that 25% of her structure was destroyed, but she made it across the Pacific.

[Tiornu]

Sargent, are you thinking of Houston?

I believe Musashi was the only ship to absorb more torpedo hits than Hornet.

[Guest Sargent]

Originally posted by Tiornu:

Sargent, are you thinking of Houston?

I believe Musashi was the only ship to absorb more torpedo hits than Hornet.

 

No, it was Reno. I'm sure you have Freidman's U.S. Cruisers, it's in there.

 

I'm not really sure that Musashi beat Hornet in the Getting Beat Up Sweepstakes (yes, looking again I do believe she did). Still, Big Mushy didn't catch four Long Lances, and Hornet did in addition to everything else. Somewhere in the mess I've a got a total of the hits on Hornet. Even with all of it, I think she could have survived the combat damage, but the IJN was too close, so they had to scuttle her... and scuttle her... and scuttle her... and try again... and leave her for the Japs to sink. Incredible punishment.

 

Yorktown could have been saved if Buckmaster hadn't abandoned ship too soon.

[Tiornu]

I suspect you're thinking of Houston. You're definitely not thinking of Reno. She took a single torpedo only.

[Guest Sargent]

Originally posted by Tiornu:

I suspect you're thinking of Houston. You're definitely not thinking of Reno. She took a single torpedo only.

 

<muttersnarlcurse> You're right. Friedman details the damage to Reno, then switches to Houston right at the bottom of the page. If you miss the reference before turning the page (as I did), it reads as if Houston's damage happened to Reno.

<muttersnarlcurse>... made me get up and find the G-D book, then he's right... <muttersnarlcurse>

[Scott Cunningham]

There is a book called "Saving the Houston" or something like that. The first torpedo really wrecked her. The second blasted the largely hollow stern (hangar) and complicated the situation.

 

All that being said, she was a modern light cruiser, and the crew performed superbly (well enough that a book was written to tell their story).

[hojutsuka]

Originally posted by Scott Cunningham:

I see your point. Yes, US did build the worlds best ships by 1943.

 

When I look at the damage ships took before going down (look at the un-armored carrier Hornet for example) and compare it to highly rated foreign designs (Ark Royal, one torpedo and its abandon ship time).

 

Hell, When you look at what happened to the USS Franklin you start to understand what US ships were really made of.

 

Many other foreign ships took a pounding too (Yamato, Bismarck) but all went down eventually.

 

I agree that the US ships were usually well-built, and often had crews that were very well trained in damage control (often the most important factor, IMHO). But the US Navy also benefitted from the fact that by 1943 it was winning. Any damaged ship could expect air and ASW cover, so had much better chance of surviving. If the USS Franklin had been in an IJN task force and had taken the same amount of damage as she did in real life, she would never have made it home. The exact same ship, with the same heroic crew, would in the IJN have joined the Yamato and the Bismarck as just another ship that went down eventually.

 

Hojutsuka

[Guest Sargent]

Originally posted by hojutsuka:

I agree that the US ships were usually well-built, and often had crews that were very well trained in damage control (often the most important factor, IMHO).  But the US Navy also benefitted from the fact that by 1943 it was winning.  Any damaged ship could expect air and ASW cover, so had much better chance of surviving.  If the USS Franklin had been in an IJN task force and had taken the same amount of damage as she did in real life, she would never have made it home.  The exact same ship, with the same heroic crew, would in the IJN have joined the Yamato and the Bismarck as just another ship that went down eventually.

 

Hojutsuka

 

 

True, the changed tactical situation helped, but the issue is structure (and damage control). Some of the "miracles" took place in 1942 (eg, Minneapolis & New Orleans surviving having bows blown off at Tassafaronga), and I mentioned that ships that could have been saved except for proximity of the enemy. Even before our "official" involvement in WW2, DD Kearney was torpedoed while "just happening" to be in the screen of a British convoy. She was hit at the break of the forecastle (a common structural weak spot) and boiler room and survived and got back under her own power. The RN was very impressed that she survived.

[Scott Cunningham]

There was one US Fletcher ship that sank due to a near miss. It sprung her seams and it overwhelmed the pumps. The ship sank later that day.

 

The book "Blood on the Seas" covers all US destroyer losses, a pretty interesting book.

[Guest Sargent]

Originally posted by Scott Cunningham:

There was one US Fletcher ship that sank due to a near miss. It sprung her seams and it overwhelmed the pumps. The ship sank later that day.

 

That happened a lot, the mining effect of a near miss was often more damaging than a hit.