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I104 are completely superfluous, their 2 firing btys have no one to support any more, since 22 RA were disbanded back in 2004. A better use might be conversion to another Corps, rather than support a vestigial RA(V) Rgt.

 

Sorry, but I thought one of 106s batteries had supported 22. 104 supporting 22 would make no sense as 22 had Rapier - it would make more sense for them to support one of the two regular HVM units (although these were already supported by 106). According to their website, The role of 104 Regiment is to provide Close Air Defence for NATO troops of the multi national ACE Rapid Reaction Corp, protecting them from attack by enemy aircraft.

 

The problem converting anyone to 105mm LG is that we gave/sold a load of those away in the 80s/90s as surplus and haven't bought anymore. There simply aren't enough to go round.

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are they going to be the only Sqd in 6 Rgt AAC

also what is happening with the Pioneers?

 

WRW

 

Another Sqn is to be newly raised at Dishforth (as a specialist rather than independent unit?) so I hear.

 

102 Pnr Sqn was transferred to 165 Port and Maritime (the unit that annexed my beloved PB IoW R), 103 Pnr Sqn was disbanded. 100, 101 and 104 remain in 168 Pnr Rgt.

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Sorry, but I thought one of 106s batteries had supported 22. 104 supporting 22 would make no sense as 22 had Rapier - it would make more sense for them to support one of the two regular HVM units (although these were already supported by 106). According to their website, The role of 104 Regiment is to provide Close Air Defence for NATO troops of the multi national ACE Rapid Reaction Corp, protecting them from attack by enemy aircraft.

 

The problem converting anyone to 105mm LG is that we gave/sold a load of those away in the 80s/90s as surplus and haven't bought anymore. There simply aren't enough to go round.

 

More due to county alignments. 22 RA was the Welsh regular Rgt of the RA, in the same way as 103 was raided by 3 (Liverpool and Manchester) and 12 (Lancashire and Cumbria) for IRs.

 

There are plenty of 105mm, but many are not upgraded to APS, in fact back in 2003 the TA were raided for APS equipped 105 LG. Some 20 odd are held by UOTCs...

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I cannot see MLRS being deployed in any great numbers at present so why not an MLRS Regt with a HQ and holding bty, a regular immediately deployable bty, a training bty and a number of TA btys

 

much the same with Rapier

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There are plenty of 105mm, but many are not upgraded to APS, in fact back in 2003 the TA were raided for APS equipped 105 LG. Some 20 odd are held by UOTCs...

 

How many guns does each regiment or battery actually have?

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How many guns does each regiment or battery actually have?

 

103 RA has 18 subs (gun detachments), but currently only hold 3-4 guns per bty each (and ISTR an AS-90 simulator ea). As part of whole fleet management, on camps they draw the remaining scaling from 14 RA at Larkhill (the guns are constantly rotating anyway). The same is true of 100 RA, and I'd imagine the same will be true of 105 RA. This is prettymuch true of the regular regiments too.

 

The thing is, that despite 150 pieces still being held, its not economic to ship guns to Canada, or the Middle East, so arriving units leave their guns at home and take over the guns there (the same for all major equipment), so there's a constant juggling act with all major equipments. The same is true of Armoured Regiments, they only hold a reduced number of Tanks (about 30) and upscale in theatre.

 

When GW2 kicked off, 7 Para RHA managed to receive it's full WFE upscale to 32 guns, but none of the Pax were TA Para Gunners, they went to 29 Cdo RA (which struggled to field it's full strength of 18 guns ISTR). GW2 kicked off for 7 with a full sustained "Fire Mission Regiment", as all 32 guns were targetted en mass at various Iraqi positions.

 

The net effect is that, say an Infantry Bn is going to Iraq with Warrior, one Battalion set of Warriors is needed in the Uk for training, another in Canada for BATUS TESEX, and another in Iraq to use.

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In that case, might be a good idea to convert them to horses, they seem to lead a charmed life. :)

 

What say all of you, what is the ideal size for the RAC in the British army? I cant see the UK deploying more than a Brigade, but logic dictates you want more than that to give you some ablity to sustain the deployed unit. What are we looking at, 4 Battalions of maybe 120 tanks total? At what point does it become unsustainable, and we get out of Armoured Warfare entirely?

 

Ideally each infantry battalion should be matched by a cav/armr sqn, preferably as heavy as possible IMHO (the old school 18 Tanks per Sqn).

 

Since we're reducing ourselves to 7 Warrior (exc LWC Bn) and 3 FV432 Bns, this would equate to 10 Sqns (2.5 4 Sqn Rgts), however some "weird stuff " is occuring, with Light Role Bns as part of Armour/ Mech Bdes. If we want to sutain 5 Armour/ Mech Bdes, we need 5 Armr Rgts (ideally of 3 Sqns each, which are simply given to the 3 Inf BGs, or you get some unwieldy combinations).

 

5 Armr Rgts is what we're getting under rebalancing, however, the 3 Rgts in Mech Bdes will convert a Sqn to "Medium" (i.e. CVR(T)) to support the Light Role Bn in the Brigade.

 

So the org will be:

 

Scots DG and QRH: 4x Challenger Sqns each (Germany)

RDG, KRH and 2RTR: 3x Challenger Sqns and a CVR(T) Sqn

9/12 L: 3x CVR(T) Sqns (Germany)

QDG: 3-4 CVR(T) Sqns (3 Div)

HCR, QRL, LD:: 3-4x CVR(T) Sqns (1 Armr Recce Bde)

 

We've pretty much carved each old Regiment down to a single Sqn. Last year only 1st DG, 2nd DG, 2nd D, 9th L and 12th L had a 2nd Sqn (plus the composite Troops in the HCMR). Guess who's next to get hit?

 

http://www.geocities.com/littlegreenmen.geo/UKCav2k6.htm

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There are going to be 13 CVRT Sqns. 10 with 5 Formation Recce Regiments (2 ea plus another sqn for close surveillance with no CVRTs) and 3 in the 3 armoured regiment attached to Mech Bdes.

 

There'll also be 18 armoured sqns, 8 with 2 regiments in armoured bdes, 9 with 3 regiments in mech bdes and 1 with the LWC.

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When GW2 kicked off, 7 Para RHA managed to receive it's full WFE upscale to 32 guns, but none of the Pax were TA Para Gunners, they went to 29 Cdo RA (which struggled to field it's full strength of 18 guns ISTR). GW2 kicked off for 7 with a full sustained "Fire Mission Regiment", as all 32 guns were targetted en mass at various Iraqi positions.

 

I still find it a bit scarey that we could barely field 50 guns out of a total holding of c. 150. Have they brought more up to the latest standard with APS now? Have you any idea where the 25 pack howitzers we've declared are? I'm assuming some of them must be targetry.

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I still find it a bit scarey that we could barely field 50 guns out of a total holding of c. 150. Have they brought more up to the latest standard with APS now? Have you any idea where the 25 pack howitzers we've declared are? I'm assuming some of them must be targetry.

 

More due to personnel. 7 Para RHA only has a requirement for 200 Para trained pax, and for the ability to jump in 6 guns (in effect 2 guns in each Bty), the rest may be "hats". In reality considerably more than that are Para trained, but when GW2 kicked off they drew reinforcements from 19 Highland RA (who only converted from 105 the year before), 100 RA(V) and 103 RA(V), the extra guns being draw from TA holdings (103 and the HAC Gun Troop had APS).

 

29 Cdo RA have a requirement for 100% Commando trained pax, and would not take any personnel without Commando, or at least Para training. This hamstrung their reinforcement. APS Guns were certainly available, my Bty still had 4 in the gun park (down from 6).

 

All guns dedicated for Operational use are APS now, leaving UOTC gun wings (2 each, say 30), 14 RA (holds about a dozen non-converted 105s for the first few weeks of Basic Field Guns cse), and various 105s used for saluting (about another dozen).

 

A full set of held in Canada for use on BATUS (24 guns?), 7, 29 and 40 have about 66, 100, 103 and 105 will hold about 40 between them.

 

That adds up to about 172, and apparently we have 207 (many of those in store).

 

We still used 25pdr as a saluting piece until very recently

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Thanks for the info. Dumb question, but why do HAC have APS guns - I thought their war role isn't employing howitzers IIRC, so ceremonial spec guns would do. OTOH it surprises me that 14 would have non APS guns - unless their role includes firepower demos at Larkhill. I don't see the training value in having a completely different aiming system on the guns you train with. Does the UOTC number include CCFs? Some of the latter had L5s ten years ago. Otherwise it seems a bit on the high side (how many UOTCs are there?). The number of saluting guns also seems high. The only L118s I can think of in that role are at Edinburgh castle (1) Hillsborough NI (2?) and Cardiff (1?) - a few might still be at Gibraltar for ceremonial use and would count for CFE purposes. They may well have spares/trainers though. 207 still puts us well over CFE, even accounting for a set in Canada and - is another set held in the Falklands perhaps?

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According to open media reports the original APS conversion program completed in 2002 was 127 guns. The three L118 regts need 54 guns. However, don't forget stocks held in foreign parts so that only the men need to be flown in (eg FI). I wouldn't be surprised if the various saluting guns around the place were worn out barrels and fit only for saluting, they look OK with a lick of paint and chrome on the shiny bits.

 

Current pressure on L118 stocks seems to be connected with the next rotation to Afg which involves a temporary conversion of an AS90 bty, as will the following one. Since the production facilities for lt guns are still open (delivery to Thailand last year and another order for the Thai marines a possibility, although these were L119 but with APS) a new UK order shouldn't be too difficult if they find the money (stop wasting it on the navy for starters :-) ). However, it may be that they are waiting for the improvement designs to be completed and tested, although the changes are fairly minor with the possible exception of the recoil mech. However, software upgrades are always a risk and APS may not be an exception and seems to be associated with integrating a new MVMD, which may not have been selected yet. Of sourse what will be interesting is the new HE shell if and when it reaches Afg.

 

7 RHA took only their normal 18 guns to Iraq, but as is usual were brought to WE in men. 29 Cdo took 2 btys (only 2 RM cdos went) but increased them to 8 guns each. However, they took the entire regt's manpower but do not seem to have used any TA or soldiers from other regts. Only 3 RHA were 32 guns.

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Thanks for the info. Dumb question, but why do HAC have APS guns - I thought their war role isn't employing howitzers IIRC, so ceremonial spec guns would do. OTOH it surprises me that 14 would have non APS guns - unless their role includes firepower demos at Larkhill. I don't see the training value in having a completely different aiming system on the guns you train with. Does the UOTC number include CCFs? Some of the latter had L5s ten years ago. Otherwise it seems a bit on the high side (how many UOTCs are there?). The number of saluting guns also seems high. The only L118s I can think of in that role are at Edinburgh castle (1) Hillsborough NI (2?) and Cardiff (1?) - a few might still be at Gibraltar for ceremonial use and would count for CFE purposes. They may well have spares/trainers though. 207 still puts us well over CFE, even accounting for a set in Canada and - is another set held in the Falklands perhaps?

 

Good question. They don't have APS guns anymore, they did, but they were taken during GW2.

 

The point of dial sights is that training on that system explains how to lay a gun properly (which will also be needed if the APS goes down), they conversion to APS happens.

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The point of dial sights is that training on that system explains how to lay a gun properly (which will also be needed if the APS goes down), they conversion to APS happens.

 

I didn't realise they had dial sights for back-up - just direct fire sights. It makes a lot of sense though.

 

As an aside, there have been a few posts on arrse to the effect that AS90 units no longer train traditional survey (one regiment had had a quote from the manufacturer to have its theodolites* recalibrated and had decided not to go ahead - this was several years ago now).

 

*or survey instruments of some kind - I think the manufacturer was Leica.

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However, it may be that they are waiting for the improvement designs to be completed and tested, although the changes are fairly minor with the possible exception of the recoil mech.

 

Thanks Nigel. What is an MVMD? Also could the lack of additional purchases be down to intended purchase of LIMAWS(G) ?

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21 and 23 to be amalgamated as something like 21/23 (Artists) Battalion, The Parachute Regiment according to the duty rumour. DSF isn't happy paying 10 million per year for a unit that isn't deployable in role.

 

not unreasonable - basically a second para TA

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21 and 23 to be amalgamated as something like 21/23 (Artists) Battalion, The Parachute Regiment according to the duty rumour. DSF isn't happy paying 10 million per year for a unit that isn't deployable in role.

 

Why are 21 and 23 not deployable? The US Army is able to make good use of its reserve SF types, why not the British?

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Why are 21 and 23 not deployable? The US Army is able to make good use of its reserve SF types, why not the British?

 

It was tried, and they were an abject failure in role. I can't find the details in the public domain, and so I'll not be the one to leek them. Hence changes in selection (it's been brought up to 22 standards) which dropped the numbers, and several hundred disappearing to do private security work didn't help either. I suspect they'd strucggle to form a couple of fully manned companies between them.

 

The reserve of choice at the moment for DSF is the HAC. Then don't have the pretentions 21/23 have.

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One book ive read by a former SAS veteran (Ghost Force?) suggests that the 2 TA Battalions were never really much cop anyway. Apparently they would all happily turn up for practicing storming embassies (the kind of role they never actually had) yet when it came to practice their wartime role (living in a ditch behind enemy lines counting T80s) nobody would turn up.

On the amusing side, when I failed my TA medical (think Mr Mcgoo) the examiner was rattling off SAS TA regs in a final attempt to get me in. Rather amusing really because it was only a humble local recce regiment. On the postive side, for a moment there I felt a bit like Peter Skellon. :lol:

 

Probably, but Ken Connor also suggested disbanding 22 (or at least making it elite light infantry again) and burying the real SF in the green army.

 

However, the role shaping up for them seems to be Recce troops. After the abortion of a certain deployment, 2 Paras Patrols Pl had a composite 21/23 Section who did okay, this has become an ongoing thing, with 21/23 chaps being mobilised to Para Bns on Iraq/Afghanistan tours (which is public domain if you look hard enough).

 

So 21/23 is likely morphing in a Para capbadged Specialist Recce type unit, under the Airborne Forces rather than Director Special Forces (the current one positively hates the TA SAS)

Edited by 67th Tigers
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