What British Military?

[WRW]

Given teh current state of world affairs, what military would you propose for the UK?

[superfractal]

Given teh current state of world affairs, what military would you propose for the UK?

 

More later but for a start.

 

1- increase spending by at least 50%more but idealy up to 2 times as much, maybe 3 depending on available funds.

 

2- Kill the upper management!(edit! of the MOD of course!) and give the final say in what equipment gets issued to the army.

Edited January 19, 2007 by superfractal

[Xavier]

More later but for a start.

 

1- increase spending by at least 50%more but idealy up to 2 times as much, maybe 3 depending on available funds.

that would be as much or even almost 50% more as during the cold war, wouldn't that be a teeny weeny to much?

2- Kill the upper management! and give the final say in what equipment gets issued to the army.

[Chris Werb]

[swerve]

More later but for a start.

 

1- increase spending by at least 50%more but idealy up to 2 times as much, maybe 3 depending on available funds.

 

2- Kill the upper management! and give the final say in what equipment gets issued to the army.

 

What - the same proportion of GDP as the post-WW2 peak of the 1950s? No chance, mate! You couldn't hire enough people to operate all your shiny new toys.

[Dan Robertson]

I would suggest that you mobilise the millions of people who wish to immigrate to the UK by allowing citizenship with service and sort out the numbers problem that way.

 

I would equip the army with far more light protected vehicles (objective to have all light vehicles mine and bullet resistant), so we don't have situation where the British Army is using what is effectively a third world technical.

 

Would look at pooling expensive but rarely used weapons with other countries on a pay per use basis.

 

Would look at making the forces a matrix organisation where capability was held in one place for similar systems, say helicopters, transport, wheeled vehicles. But specific missions/operations were owned by one group of the forces. Having all similar resources held a single point allows those resources to be more sensibly distributed. Rather than today where for example the RAF (who don't exactly need desert camo) might be stocked up with desert kit but the army who need it more don't have any.

[67th Tigers]

Starting with the assumption that these are to be realistic plans, and restricting myself to the Army only.

 

1. Disbanded 16 AA Bde

 

Or rather split the Brigade in 2, creating a new 5 Airborne Bde (with probably only 3 Bns, 2 and 3 Para and a RGR Bn) and a new 16 Air Cavalry (or something less US) Brigade, with 3x Apache regiments.

 

2. Redesignate 1 Rifles

 

The regiment hasn't even formed yet, but the RDGBDWLI Bn (henceforth "Alphabet Regiment") I'd pull from the Regiment and form a new Royal Wessex Regiment of 2 Bns including the Hampshire elements of the PWRR (the rest can go back to Queen's). In line with current policy I'd commando role the 1st Bn (Devon, Dorest and Hampshire).

 

3. Brigades

 

Keep 3 Armoured Brigades (even if one relocates to the UK), 3 Mech Brigades and raise 2 or 3 new light brigades. The first 2 should be 2 and 52 Infantry Brigades, who already have all the infantry etc. but need combat support and CSS arms, the 3rd could either be 5 AB Bde, or a new Bde.

 

Form an STA Bde (not that silly 1 Armoured Recce Bde), out of mostly RA assets.

 

4. TA Inf

 

Bite the bullet and accept these new TA Inf Bns are too small, and consolidate them into 8 or 9 full sized Bns. I'd suggest:

 

Scottish Bn (6 and 7 RRS)

NE Bn (5 RRF and 4 Yorks)

NW Bn (3 Lancs and elm 4 Mercian)

Welsh and Western Bn (3 Welsh and elm 4 Mercian)

SW or "Rifle" Bn (6 Rifles, elm 7 Rifles)

SE Bn (3 PWRR and elm Londons)

London Bn (Londons and elm 7 Rifles)

Eastern Bn (3 R Anglian and elm 4 Mercian)

Irish Bn (Rangers, absorbing 3-5 R Irish as they're disbanded)

 

4 Para be broken up, but each TA Inf Bn to have an establishment for a Para trained Recce Pl.

 

21/23 (Artists) Bn, Parachute Regiment (or whatever they're going to name it) to be a LURPS unit, and probably simply adopt the monkier "The Artist Rifles". Place them in the STA Bde with the HAC and the RA's locating rgts.

 

5. TA Arty

 

Drop TA Air Def entirely (if necessary keep one Rgt), convert the remaining 2-3 TA RA Rgts to field.

 

6. A TA formation

 

The 9 TA Bns to form a 3 Brigade Infantry Division, one designated Armoured, 1 Mech and 1 Light for stripping as supports if necessary. The 4 Yoyo Rgts to become 3x Armoured Rgts (2 with Challenger, 1 with a light armoured vehicle) and a Divisional Armoured Recce Rgt

 

7. Reequip 1 Armoured Recce Brigade

 

Rearm them with Challengers (CR1 if any are left), Warrior OPV etc. as a heavy recce force

 

8. Reequip 1 Arty Bde

 

3x MLRS/ Braveheart Rgts

 

Thus:

 

Corps Tps

STA Brigade

Attack Heli Brigade

Artillery Brigade

Air Defence Brigade

Armoured Recce Brigade

 

1 Armoured Div with 3 Brigades

1 Mech Div with 3 Brigades

1 Light Div with 3 Brigades (1 Para)

1 Reserve Div with 3 Brigades

Commando Brigade (mixed RM/ Army)

[superfractal]

What - the same proportion of GDP as the post-WW2 peak of the 1950s? No chance, mate! You couldn't hire enough people to operate all your shiny new toys.

 

Why not?

 

about 20k people every join the army, its just that about the same leave. About everyone i know who left the army did so because of the conditions.

 

I also think that we do not have enough troops to give our commitments the manpower they deserve, maybe that level of spending is ridiculous but we are clearly not spending nearly enough.

[Colin Williams]

1. Keep the Guards and Household Cavalry for ceremony.

2. Provide heavier weapons to the police.

3. Send some recruits to the unified EU Army.

4. Keep the SAS and SBS to give potential adversaries pause.

5. Disband the rest.

[superfractal]

Mechanize the Salvation army?

 

You would equip those savage's?

[Rubberneck]

Not sure if you are joking or not, but your line of thought may not be that far off.

 

1. Keep the Guards and Household Cavalry for ceremony.

2. Provide heavier weapons to the police.

3. Send some recruits to the unified EU Army.

4. Keep the SAS and SBS to give potential adversaries pause.

5. Disband the rest.

[Akhe100]

To be honest it seems good as it is, there doesn't seem to be any real NEED for any expansion in the british army.

[67th Tigers]

Im getting to the point where I think we ought to disband the Naval helicopter units and transfer them to the army (with suitable modifications), ditto the Chinooks.

 

No! The skates are the only people that are reliable.

 

The 4,000lb rule needs to go though, and larger Helis given to the AAC

[KingSargent]

Contentious? Yes. Necessary? I think so. Not that we can afford to field a Airmobile Division of course, even though we need one. (Though if we binned all the ceremonial guards nonsense it might be a start)

Just how much does the ceremonial guards nonsense cost?

 

As one Not Of Blighty, I think it is good PR and a tourist attraction. Maybe the Army does not benfit directly from tourists, but the UK does.

 

And at the Guards Nonsense, you could send out skinny troopers in ragged BDUs wearing a "Support Our Troops" sign and carrying a hat. Wasn't there once a Regiment nicknamed the Beggars?

[Jim Martin]

Just how much does the ceremonial guards nonsense cost?

 

As one Not Of Blighty, I think it is good PR and a tourist attraction. Maybe the Army does not benfit directly from tourists, but the UK does.

 

And at the Guards Nonsense, you could send out skinny troopers in ragged BDUs wearing a "Support Our Troops" sign and carrying a hat. Wasn't there once a Regiment nicknamed the Beggars?

 

Hey now, panhandlers can make good cash, actually. No joke, there are Washington, DC City employees who get off of work, change into raggedy clothes and pose as homeless people at Metro stops, to make extra cash. Apparently the money is that good...

 

So you may have stumbled upon a new source of funding for the British Army! "Smythe, Jones! You two are on panhandling duty this week! Report to supply for your tattered garments and tin cups, and remember, no showering or brushing your teeth for the duration!"

[Chris Werb]

5. TA Arty

 

Drop TA Air Def entirely (if necessary keep one Rgt), convert the remaining 2-3 TA RA Rgts to field.

 

This has already happened. 106 Regiment are the only remiaing TA AD and they exist only to train replacements for the few (3?) remaining regular AD Regiments.

[BillB]

Just how much does the ceremonial guards nonsense cost?

 

As one Not Of Blighty, I think it is good PR and a tourist attraction. Maybe the Army does not benfit directly from tourists, but the UK does.

 

And at the Guards Nonsense, you could send out skinny troopers in ragged BDUs wearing a "Support Our Troops" sign and carrying a hat. Wasn't there once a Regiment nicknamed the Beggars?

A fair bit I suspoect, King. It's not just the manpower wage bill (and ISTR that a lot of Guards regiments have more battalions that their line brethren), all that fancy kit is very expensive as is the stuff necessary to maintain it. Might have changed now or he might have been bullshitting, but years back a guy I knew serving in the household Cav told me that got special diamond polishing cloths for their high boots and breastplates. And then there is the background infrastructure. For example, I believe the Guards still maintain their own dedicated training depot, and a riding school has to be maintained to train cav troopes to ride, with all the associated stabling, veterinary and forage costs. In addition, they have to train and equip all the associated trades as well, like farriers and tackmen or whatever they are called. Overall I bet it adds up to a pretty penny, which is why they have been pushing out the line that the units involved can switch seamlessly from public duties to normal ops for years.

 

Personally I'd reduce the size of the public duties contingent to a dedicated battalion-plus, with regimental capbadge-specific companies.

 

BillB

[Chris Werb]

Chris you will note that the cutbacks have hit those boys as well. Not only are they equipped in out of date uniforms, they dont have a rifle between them and to make matters worse, use obsolete transport without a milimetre of armour in it. Not unlike the HCR then really.

 

But they do still help out with civil contingencies:

 

[67th Tigers]

This has already happened. 106 Regiment are the only remiaing TA AD and they exist only to train replacements for the few (3?) remaining regular AD Regiments.

 

100 RA = Light Gun

101 RA = MLRS/ STA

103 RA = Light Gun/ AS-90 (Converted from AD 2001)

104 RA = AD

105 RA = Light Gun (Converted from AD 2006)

106 RA = AD

 

Regular wise:

 

16 RA are still Rapier

 

12 and47 are the last HVM Rgt (457 Bty were the TA Bty aligned with them, and pax could be Para trained at their option)

Edited January 20, 2007 by 67th Tigers

[Phil]

100 RA = Light Gun

101 RA = MLRS/ STA

103 RA = Light Gun/ AS-90 (Converted from AD 2001)

104 RA = AD

105 RA = Light Gun (Converted from AD 2006)

106 RA = AD

 

Regular wise:

 

16 RA are still Rapier

 

12 and47 are the last HVM Rgt (457 Bty were the TA Bty aligned with them, and pax could be Para trained at their option)

 

103 has been AD for ages. It only gave up its HVMs last year and when I was speaking to the PSAO of 211 Btry last year he said they were re-rolling to provide general support to the RA and they didn't know the ORBAT yet. He was inclined to think the regiment would support UAV ops. Only C Troop, 211 Btry operate Light Guns in the ceremonial role.

[67th Tigers]

103 has been AD for ages. It only gave up its HVMs last year and when I was speaking to the PSAO of 211 Btry last year he said they were re-rolling to provide general support to the RA and they didn't know the ORBAT yet. He was inclined to think the regiment would support UAV ops. Only C Troop, 211 Btry operate Light Guns in the ceremonial role.

 

I was in 103 RA when they converted in 2001. 211 Bty is a 104 RA Bty, and they're still AD.

 

The problem with 104 is noone knows what to do with it, 101 have got the UAV gig (2 btys each supporting 32 and 39 in their various roles).

 

Essentially it boils down to:

 

HAC: support Special OPs of 4/73 Bty

100 RA: support 7, 29 and 40 (back in 2001 or so they supported 3 Div and wore the 3 Div badge)

101 RA: support 32, 39 and elm 5 (204 (Tyneside Scottish) is a UAV/ ASP Bty, 269 was the CoBRa/ ASP gig, 203 and 205 are still MLRS)

103 RA: support the DAG of 1st AD (3, 4 and 26)

104 RA: ? (supported 12 in Germany, but that has gone to 106, alonng with 12's aligned bty, 210 bty)

105 RA: support the DAG of 3rd MD (1 and 19, they might get the 40 gig with 19 Light Bde)

106 RA: support the cloud punchers (16 (265 Bty) and 47 (457 Bty), plus 12 (210 Bty) as mentioned above)

 

104 are completely superfluous, their 2 firing btys have no one to support any more, since 22 RA were disbanded back in 2004. A better use might be conversion to another Corps, rather than support a vestigial RA(V) Rgt.

[WRW]

a TA RA bty converted to a AAC sqd recently ?

 

WRW

[67th Tigers]

a TA RA bty converted to a AAC sqd recently ?

 

WRW

 

202 (Norfolk and Suffolk) Bty

[Phil]

I was in 103 RA when they converted in 2001. 211 Bty is a 104 RA Bty, and they're still AD.

 

The problem with 104 is noone knows what to do with it, 101 have got the UAV gig (2 btys each supporting 32 and 39 in their various roles).

 

Essentially it boils down to:

 

HAC: support Special OPs of 4/73 Bty

100 RA: support 7, 29 and 40 (back in 2001 or so they supported 3 Div and wore the 3 Div badge)

101 RA: support 32, 39 and elm 5 (204 (Tyneside Scottish) is a UAV/ ASP Bty, 269 was the CoBRa/ ASP gig, 203 and 205 are still MLRS)

103 RA: support the DAG of 1st AD (3, 4 and 26)

104 RA: ? (supported 12 in Germany, but that has gone to 106, alonng with 12's aligned bty, 210 bty)

105 RA: support the DAG of 3rd MD (1 and 19, they might get the 40 gig with 19 Light Bde)

106 RA: support the cloud punchers (16 (265 Bty) and 47 (457 Bty), plus 12 (210 Bty) as mentioned above)

 

104 are completely superfluous, their 2 firing btys have no one to support any more, since 22 RA were disbanded back in 2004. A better use might be conversion to another Corps, rather than support a vestigial RA(V) Rgt.

 

Oops my mistake. Mixing up my 104s with my 103s again! Teach me to be so quick to post.

[67th Tigers]

Oops my mistake. Mixing up my 104s with my 103s again! Teach me to be so quick to post.

 

No dramas, the question of what to do with 104 still stands. Shame because they're a good regiment.

 

ISTR under rebalancing some kind of "general reserve" regiment was the order of the day. Might not be a bad thing if they get a gig supplying IRs to Cyprus.