Canada to send tanks, extra troops to Afghanistan

[Indy_Shark]

Canada to send tanks, extra troops to Afghanistan By David Ljunggren

Fri Sep 15, 4:57 PM ET

 

OTTAWA (Reuters) - Canada is sending around 200 extra troops as well as a squadron of heavy Leopard tanks to boost its 2,300-strong mission in Afghanistan, which has clashed heavily with Taliban forces in recent weeks, the Defense Department said on Friday.

 

Four tanks will be sent as soon as possible and as many as 15 could eventually be deployed, officials said. Canadian tanks have not been used in combat since the 1950-53 Korean War.

 

The announcement came shortly after senior Canadian officials acknowledged there were "serious and complex challenges to overcome" in the war-torn country.

 

In the last three months alone, 16 Canadian soldiers have died in Afghanistan, prompting ever-louder calls for the troops to be brought back home. Military leaders said they are responding to an increasingly aggressive enemy now using heavier weapons.

 

"Conditions have changed. We saw more of the Taliban than was predicted over the past six to 12 months," said Rick Hillier, Canada's chief of defense staff.

 

"We saw a change in their tactics where they really moved from a guerrilla warfare-type style, a counter-insurgency, to some conventional techniques, where they dug in."

 

Hillier said the extra forces would help protect reconstruction teams working in southern Afghanistan.

 

"Infrastructure projects, particularly in the short term, are the overwhelming requirement and therefore we've got to put much more emphasis on it," he told reporters.

 

Afghans need to see "there is a bright light at the end of this tunnel, even though the end of that tunnel might be a long way a way," he added.

 

The extra forces comprise an infantry company from French-speaking Quebec -- where opposition to the Canadian mission is at its most vocal -- as well as military engineers and a unit designed to combat Taliban forces using mortars.

 

The government says Canada is doing more than its fair share in Afghanistan and wants other NATO nations to commit additional forces.

 

"There are serious and complex challenges to overcome before we can achieve our objectives in Afghanistan ... (they) are extremely difficult to achieve in insecure environments," an official told reporters earlier in the day.

 

"The success of this integrated approach remains contingent on a robust and sustained international presence."

 

Another official added: "From our perspective, clearly it would be more useful to have more troops over there... We recognize that the situation in Afghanistan is dynamic, extremely dynamic."

 

The Conservative government raised eyebrows this month when Defense Minister Gordon O'Connor said the Taliban could not be eliminated militarily.

 

"It is not about destroying the Taliban militarily from our perspective. It is about defeating an insurgency, and I have no expectation of us declaring explicitly (a) military victory in this in the days, weeks or months ahead," the second official said.

 

"That's not how you win an insurgency. It's about developing effective Afghan national police forces and an Afghan national army."

 

Afghan President Hamid Karzai is due to visit Canada next week and will address Parliament next Friday.

[Indy_Shark]

Are these Leopards or Leopard II's? How are they going to get those tanks over there? I'd love to see some pictures either way.

 

 

Wow. Canada has tanks...

[Ssnake]

Leopard C2 - they're Leopard 1s with add-on armor.

The Search button is your friend.

[Indy_Shark]

Leopard C2 - they're Leopard 1s with add-on armor.

The Search button is your friend.

368692[/snapback]

 

 

I thought they gave up the Leo's in favor of wheeled AFV's. I was hoping they had picked up some Leo II's, but no luck.

 

It ought to be fun to watch these old tanks in action before they go to the museum.

[Guest pfcem]

Canada built 114 Leopard C1 MBTs (essentially Leopard 1A3 with minor equipment changes) plus a number iv armoured recovery vehicles & armoured bridge layers under license in 1978-79. Most/all C1s were upgraded to C2 standard in 2000-2001 using surplus Leopard 1A5 turrets from Germany. It is believed that ~66 Leopard C2 remain in service.

[Guest JamesG123]

Aparently this mission has spared Canada's Leos from the scrapper's torch just in the nick of time.

 

The "lighter is righter" drones in the US DoD should take note of this development...

[swerve]

I thought they gave up the Leo's in favor of wheeled AFV's.

 

The last government planned to, but AFAIK that idea was dropped by the new government. Not sure what the plan is now.

[Chris Werb]

The last government planned to, but AFAIK that idea was dropped by the new government. Not sure what the plan is now.

368811[/snapback]

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see Canada going the Australian route and inheriting some M1s.

[Exel]

Are these the first tanks to be deployed to Afghanistan?

 

I wonder how survivable the Leo1, sorry C2, will be there. Even with the armor upgrades. I just hope that that bold action wont cost them any Canadian tankers' lives.

[Indy_Shark]

I agree. I'd pick up some slightly used M1's or Leo II's.

 

I will say this for the Leo C2, it should be very mobile in the region. They said they were sending 4 over with more to come later. Can these fly over in a C5 or C17? I would assume so.

[baboon6]

Are these the first tanks to be deployed to Afghanistan?

 

I wonder how survivable the Leo1, sorry C2, will be there. Even with the armor upgrades. I just hope that that bold action wont cost them any Canadian tankers' lives. 

368978[/snapback]

 

1. By a NATO or coalition country, yes. All other tanks used by various factions have been ex-Russian. There are British CVR(T)s there at the moment, AFAIK the US has no tracked AFVs in AFG.

2. The Leos are more survivable than LAVIIIs, Nyalas and G-Wagons, the vehicles the CF is using in-theatre at the moment. Of course they are not invulnerable.

[CV9030FIN]

I wonder how survivable the Leo1, sorry C2, will be there. Even with the armor upgrades. I just hope that that bold action wont cost them any Canadian tankers' lives.

368978[/snapback]

 

??? What? Doesn't a MBT have way better protection and firepower than a LAVIII that they are now using?

 

EDIt: typos...firepwer

Edited September 16, 2006 by CV9030FIN

[CV9030FIN]

 

 

Damn... you were 2 minutes faster.

Edited September 16, 2006 by CV9030FIN

[DemolitionMan]

Norway has CV9030 over there.

[Visitor]

2. The Leos are more survivable than LAVIIIs, Nyalas and G-Wagons, the vehicles the CF is using in-theatre at the moment. Of course they are not invulnerable.

368997[/snapback]

 

Yes, the Leos are have more armor (and armament). But more survivable?

 

Just what does the Taliban have that could not take out a Leo C2, but would destroy the other three? Can't the RPGs that they use penetrate even the front armor of the Leo C2?

[Brad Edmondson]

They should be deployed with the new MEXAS armour which is spaced armour like on the LEO2A5. I'm not sure of the effect spaced armour has on HEAT warheads, my understanding is that it's most effective against KE penetrators.

 

The thermal sight on the LeoC2 will be real asset, I've heard it has higher resolution and a higher magnification than the M1A2SEP. Fire control system and stabilization is the same as the LEO2A4 AFAIK.

 

The most apt description of our tanks that was given to me is to imagine a 70's VW bug body with today's BMW guts

 

Climate could be an issue: the engines were never upgraded AFAIK and even with filters I can't imagine A-stan's poo-dust doing them any good.

[Colin]

they are also about 10 tons lighter than a Mi or Leo 2, which will be an assest in a place with poor roads, also a bit narrower.

 

The T-55 & T-72 were the most common tank there, although the French 6 ton Renault tank also served there, along with British Vickers light tanks.

[Guest pfcem]

They should be deployed with the new MEXAS armour which is spaced armour like on the LEO2A5.  I'm not sure of the effect spaced armour has on HEAT warheads, my understanding is that it's most effective against KE penetrators. 

369064[/snapback]

Spaced armor is typically more effective vs HEAT than KE.

 

 

 

The thermal sight on the LeoC2 will be real asset, I've heard it has higher resolution and a higher magnification than the M1A2SEP. 

369064[/snapback]

"Normal/Optical" magnification, maybe. Leopard C2 max magnification 11.5x. It is believed that the M1A2 SEP is still 10x optical magnification (at least that is what it is for the day sight) but also has a 50x digital magnification on its 2nd generation FLIR sight.

 

 

 

Fire control system and stabilization is the same as the LEO2A4 AFAIK.

369064[/snapback]

Fire-control system is pretty much the EMES 18 that came with the Leopard 1A5 turrets.

Edited September 17, 2006 by pfcem

[Exel]

What? Doesn't a MBT have way better protection and firepower than a LAVIII that they are now using?

368998[/snapback]

 

It also has more stuff inside going BOOM when penetrated.

 

Obviously the Leopards are better armored, but it still doesn't make them well armored. I also suspect that the role of the Leos will be somewhat different of the LAVs and others they are using now.

[Guest JamesG123]

Yes, hopefully they will be just doing heavy QRF, strategic position overwatch, and maybe some route clearing.

 

Anything else will wear them out in short order, and its not like they are still making spares for them...

[DB]

Yes, hopefully they will be just doing heavy QRF, strategic position overwatch, and maybe some  route clearing.

 

Anything else will wear them out in short order, and its not like they are still making spares for them...

369123[/snapback]

MAybe this is part of the plan - "Oh, Look, we've worn them all out, can we have some spare Leos/M1s, pretty please?"

 

David

[Guest JamesG123]

MAybe this is part of the plan - "Oh, Look, we've worn them all out, can we have some spare Leos/M1s, pretty please?"

 

That sounds like a decent plan.

[Paul F Jungnitsch]

Can see the defense minister tenting his fingers like Mister Burns.

 

"Tanks are good you say? But the Leopards are all worn out now. If we must, we could put up with some Leo2's or Abrams. If we have to."

 

Excellent.

[Exel]

OR it's part of the Defence Ministry's plan to get rid of the tanks.

 

"Oh damn, it seems we've worn out our tanks. What a shame. Well now that we don't have any tanks remaining there's really no point in discussing them. Good day."

 

[Waylander]

With all these old Leo1s lying around in western europe it should be easy to get spare parts.

 

But nevertheless the plan sounds tricky.