History of Soviet tanks

[Harkonnen]

11 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

I think we have radically different ideas about what a "liberal and open" society actually means.

I mean that in those days in the USSR it was possible to violate the orders of the government and there was no punishment for this

[Jim Warford]

1 hour ago, Harkonnen said:

This is a fabrication, since in the context of the quoted book it is given out as the fact that Moroz was a supporter of rocket weapons. Which is 100% against the truth.
In addition, everything that is published in the UVZ books is a fabrication and manipulation of facts to falsify history. This is their job, for which they get paid.
They did their job perfectly - "Members of Khruschev anti-gun / pro missile mafia".

Harkonnen; you sound like you're pissed...and maybe taking a personal jab at me. I never take one side of a story as the only side especially when dealing with topics like Soviet military history during the Cold War. The fabrication and manipulation you mention above is what makes this topic so Soviet...we get it. Let's keep things friendly...      

[Harkonnen]

36 minutes ago, Jim Warford said:

Harkonnen; you sound like you're pissed...and maybe taking a personal jab at me.   

Not at all! I am just trying to help! And if so but only on myself as I did not translated enought and written more, as SU-122 is not my focus. 

And it does not make it "Soviet" it is nothing but books from Tagil, written by Ustjanzev and Kolmakov, as well as all other articles and book writthen by Tagil side. 

These books are only needed by their design bureau, since they did not develop anything on their own, only stealing other people's ideas. You will not see such falsification and fakes from anyone else.

 

[Ssnake]

4 hours ago, Harkonnen said:

I mean that in those days in the USSR it was possible to violate the orders of the government and there was no punishment for this

Well, yeah, there certainly was some more wiggle room for opinion and arguments after Stalin's death, even if that was rolled back somewhat under Breshnev. I recognize that there were differences.

Still, I just don't think that those who had lived through Stalin's times just flipped a switch and started openly criticizing party functionaries just because they would no longer be sent to a gulag right away.

[Interlinked]

12 hours ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

Disregard ... 😉

[[
I was asked a question by email. But with my answers comes a permanent server error. I'll just write it here. In the hope that my answer will still reach the recipient.

[ So, that's that for the V-46-6 engine in the T-72M: The so called steam-air valve is in the expansion tank  and opens in the pressure range from 2.0 ... 2.2 kp/cm^2. And it opens in the opposite direction when there is negative pressure in the cooling circuit, in the range of 0.05 ... 0.15 kp/cm^2.
The water pump itself does not generate any significant pressure.  The cooling water circuit does not contain any constructive bottlenecks that would have to be overcome against pump pressure. With motor oil circuit, on the other hand, it is different.  Therefore, a minimum pressure must be maintained. ]
]]

Thank you, I understand what you mean.

[bojan]

9 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Well, yeah, there certainly was some more wiggle room for opinion and arguments after Stalin's death, even if that was rolled back somewhat under Breshnev. I recognize that there were differences.

Under Stalin cardinal sin was failing to deliver product or delivering real lemons to frontline.

First category included Kurchevsky who spent fortune on RCLs that failed to work properly, Taubin who f***** up aircraft armament program etc.

Second one, chief constructor of all pre-ww2 BT-5/7, T-26 tanks (name escapes me ATM) got demoted to front field repair workshop for fiasco with SU-76 SPG (original one, not much better known SU-76M) that just did not work properly, despite his personal assurances that it will work.

If you read what Grabin did under Stalin, including famous "tell that Georgian to stop meddling into things he does not understand" letter, you start to question that idea that "everyone was deadly afraid of Stalin". As long as those people delivered enough workable weapons they were basically free to do whatever they wanted to do.

Hence Grabin, who delivered a lot of good stuff could ignore Stalin's order of "no development of new guns ATM" and introduce ZiS-3 field gun. It worked well, so sin of "going over the line" was forgiven, as were his other projects that did not work.

Most of the Soviet weapon developers would have been fired and forgotten in the "western" "corporate" establishment long before they rose to the position of chief engineer.

 

[Ssnake]

I was thinking mostly of the post-war Stalin era.

[Harkonnen]

Very good post above by bojan. In the times of Khrushchev and Brezhnev, those who did the work and deliver product were equated with those who imitated work and wasted resources and money - Tagil and Leningrad.
For example Khrushchev himself designed so called "mole" tank wasting time and mine on a mashine which can move only forward and was visible from great distance from air.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Harkonnen

[Wiedzmin]

On 6/13/2023 at 8:52 PM, Ssnake said:

power of the argument speak

no point in arguing with thief, especially with such cheapjack as he is 

Edited June 17, 2023 by Wiedzmin

[Harkonnen]

I prefer not to communicate with nonentities, but since they are welcomed on this forum, I will still ask - what did I steal?

It looks like this envious person is running around because his extortion of historical documents was not successful. People like him won't get it.

 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2023 by Harkonnen

[KV7]

14 hours ago, Harkonnen said:

Very good post above by bojan. In the times of Khrushchev and Brezhnev, those who did the work and deliver product were equated with those who imitated work and wasted resources and money - Tagil and Leningrad.
For example Khrushchev himself designed so called "mole" tank wasting time and mine on a mashine which can move only forward and was visible from great distance from air.

How do you think did these inept organisations managed to get resources ? Were they just adept politicians, or was there some general hesitancy among the leadership to make strong expectations of enterprises, in order to make the life of the  managers easier (perhaps because these managers were themselves and important class with political power). 

[RETAC21]

1 hour ago, KV7 said:

How do you think did these inept organisations managed to get resources ? Were they just adept politicians, or was there some general hesitancy among the leadership to make strong expectations of enterprises, in order to make the life of the  managers easier (perhaps because these managers were themselves and important class with political power). 

But politics are important, watch this video unrelated to tanks to understand why:

 

[RETAC21]

Anyway, back to tanks, Hark, would you by any chance know how many T-55s were produced at Plant No. 75 in Kharkov? preferably for 1968–79 but total numbers would also do.

[seahawk]

And we should really agree that the type of MBT produced and bought always was a political decision with technical merits of the contender only playing a very small role in the decision.

[Harkonnen]

8 hours ago, RETAC21 said:

preferably for 1968–79 but total numbers would also do.

0

[RETAC21]

43 minutes ago, Harkonnen said:

0

Thanks!

[RETAC21]

2 hours ago, Harkonnen said:

0

If I may abuse, and before that?

[Harkonnen]

12 hours ago, RETAC21 said:

 

12 hours ago, RETAC21 said:

But politics are important, watch this video unrelated to tanks to understand why:

 

 

Serious? Did  I say they are not?

Edited June 18, 2023 by Harkonnen

[RETAC21]

20 hours ago, Harkonnen said:

Serious? Did  I say they are not?

You didn't but that wasn't my point, I was addressing KV7 comment about "inept organisations" by showing that competent organisations need competent politicians at their top too.

[Jim Warford]

On 6/16/2023 at 6:00 PM, Harkonnen said:

Not at all! I am just trying to help! And if so but only on myself as I did not translated enought and written more, as SU-122 is not my focus. 

And it does not make it "Soviet" it is nothing but books from Tagil, written by Ustjanzev and Kolmakov, as well as all other articles and book writthen by Tagil side. 

These books are only needed by their design bureau, since they did not develop anything on their own, only stealing other people's ideas. You will not see such falsification and fakes from anyone else.

 

O.k.; while the SU-122-54 is a focus of mine (as everyone knows), my intent was to share a quote from Morozov. It's not even a quote about putting missiles on tanks, it's actually about putting missiles/rockets on SUs. I also think it's a bold move to print in an organization's official history (Omsk tank plant), a completely made-up quote and attach it to a very well-known competitor. You'd think it would be so easy to refute by those that agree with you. Has it ever been refuted? Finally, the BTVT article regarding SUs like the SU-122-54 and turreted tanks you linked above, is interesting. While I disagree with some of it, it does provide a look at what some folks are thinking on the subject.     

[Harkonnen]

 

[Harkonnen]

[KV7]

On 6/20/2023 at 8:23 AM, Jim Warford said:

O.k.; while the SU-122-54 is a focus of mine (as everyone knows), my intent was to share a quote from Morozov. It's not even a quote about putting missiles on tanks, it's actually about putting missiles/rockets on SUs. I also think it's a bold move to print in an organization's official history (Omsk tank plant), a completely made-up quote and attach it to a very well-known competitor. You'd think it would be so easy to refute by those that agree with you. Has it ever been refuted? Finally, the BTVT article regarding SUs like the SU-122-54 and turreted tanks you linked above, is interesting. While I disagree with some of it, it does provide a look at what some folks are thinking on the subject.     

This perhaps seems to be a relatively sensible position - i.e. that future TD will be missile based, which is in fact what we saw occur, with the introduction of e.g. 9P122. 

There is still the issue of longer range direct fire support against targets other than armour, which something like SU-122-54 could have done reasonably well, and cheaper than using heavy tanks for this role. But this also is seemingly filled sufficiently by more powerful MBT, with 115 and 125mm guns (which also arguably supplant the need for heavy tanks). 
 

Edited June 22, 2023 by KV7

[Wiedzmin]

On 6/17/2023 at 11:28 PM, Harkonnen said:

will still ask - what did I steal?

Oh where to start, i really don't know... maybe from "your" T-44 articles? Which is Yuri Pasholok photo's and reports from CAMO archive, and only part you tried to do is hide very specific artifacts on photo , and even this you failed to do properly, and of course you didn't mention who's report this is, and from who you get it , what next ? Hm maybe Leopard 2AV blueprints which i get from bundesarchive spending my own money and sending this prints to few peoples who asked me about this for their research works on Leopard 2 history, and none of them was you, and of course those prints also hace specific artifacts, what's next ? Your post's from FIPS patent database with your cheap watermarks on it, again with no any source given, you so pathetic that even copied my colours for armor schemes, which is hilarious af, but again your passion for steal, biased delirium through selective quoting and forgery about "greatest Kharkov",public attention and "exclusivity" of information (through stealing and hiding source's) is well known on post soviet part of internet, now you just spreading it worldwide , so good luck to you.

 

 

[Harkonnen]

biased delirium through selective quoting and forgery about "greatest Kharkov",public attention and "exclusivity" of information

 

He is correct only in one point - exclusivity of information.  

Everything else is a product of his sick imagination, lack of sources, and paucity of intelligence. 

Of course it's hard for me to talk to a man who has had his blue color "stolen", but can he back up his claims? Maybe he can refute the publications in the Bulletin of Armored Vehicles or reports, are they forged?

Maybe all those T-72 tanks stuck in the mud because of their useless running gear is a figment of the imagination?

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Harkonnen