RAF bombers on Battle of Britain

[Richard Young]

That was a turbo-compounded V-1710. Basically the exhaust gas went into a manifold, ran down the outside of the aircraft to cool the manifold, then into a GE CH series turbo. But instead of running a compressor as a traditional turbo-supercharger, the turbo was connected back into the crankshaft to provide power. Wright did the same thing with the turbo-compounded R-3350 postwar, although they were more conservative than Allison in regards to operating temperatures.

 

The engine ran WET at 100 in Hg, good for about 2100 hp from the core, and the turbo-compound added just short of 900 hp to that, it was typically about 2980 hp, although IIRC it ran about 3200 hp with some modifications. It was really optimized for fuel efficiency in the 2000-2500 hp range rather than absolute power. But that P-63 would have had incredible performance even on ONLY 3000 hp.

 

BTW, Allison did have sodium cooled valves, the temp limit was the exhaust pipe limits, not the valves. Allison was using a P-38 exhaust pipe, but pushing it to about 1850 degrees, which was just too much for the piping. As I mentioned, they did run the exhaust external to the aircraft to get some air cooling, but it still pushed the limits of the materials. Unfortunately they just let development drop postwar, those whiny jet engines were more attractive, but it would have been a challenge to the first generation or two of gas turbines if they would have continued with it.

 

Greg Shaw

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Obviously, you have been able to find out more about that Allison variant than I have. I would be much obliged if you could reccomend some reference works that give details about it. Oh, and thanks for the info!

 

Rich

[MiloMorai]

Rich, you could always have a look at Graham White's Allied Aircraft Piston Engines of WW2, ISBN 1-56091-655-9, for a starter. He has another book out but have no info on it.

[larrikin]

It looks like there was a large amount of industry along the Moscow-Gorki axis.  Perhaps this is what would be vulnerable.  It might not be affected much by the loss of generating facilities west of Moscow, if there were similar generating plants east of Moscow.

 

The big Soviet powerplants were apparently "showcase" facilities, and so may have been advertised somewhat before the war.

 

I'll bet the Germans did not have much idea about the plants relocated east of the Urals.  After all, they did not recognize the relocation when it was going on.  What local power were the plants running on?  It seems like it would be difficult to suddenly come up with a large number of electrical generators in late 1941- early 1942. 

 

I have a brother in law who grew up on an Australian sheep ranch.  The shearing building was powered by a pole running down the length of the building (i.e., a rod, not a Northern European).  The equipment was all belt driven off the pole.

 

It should be remembered that the German oil industry was crippled over a period of a few months in 1944, although the bombing campaign was dispersed over a wide number of other targets.  So a bomber force 1/10 or 1/20 in size might have had an effect on one industry.  The transmission lines were impossible to defend everywhere.

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That would be sheep 'station'. Oz doesn't have ranchs.

 

As for hitting transmission lines with any sort of regularity, the only consistent way to do this in WWII was dive bombers against undefended targets in day light, massive area attacks on concentrated areas, or by flying into them.

[KingSargent]

That would be sheep 'station'.  Oz doesn't have ranchs.

 

As for hitting transmission lines with any sort of regularity, the only consistent way to do this in WWII was dive bombers against undefended targets in day light, massive area attacks on concentrated areas, or by flying into them.

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I always wondered why nobody attacked power lines and the Brit radar antennas with weighted cables. Make a low pass trailing a cable with a release that cuts it loose from the a/c when it encounters resistance (ie, snags something), and you could probably take down and/or short out power lines and possibly the radar screens. FTM, when the Stukas couldn't hit the antennas, flying in assault teams in Storches to blow them on the ground, along with the control and communication buildings. I have never seen anything that said the radar antenna sites were defended against groudatack.

[KingSargent]

I've always been a little surprised that no sort of commando raid was ever attempted by the germans against costal radar assets  during the BoB

 

Mind you, wouldn't the whole thing be a sort of one shot show.  After a successful raid i'm sure the brits would have planted a sufficient guard unit to make things awfully bloody for any perspective follow up attempts even with the advantage of surprise

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What makes raiders hard to counter is that the enemy can strike anytime and in a strength greater than the garrison. If there is no guard on the objective, send a squad. If there is a squad, send a platoon, and so forth. The raider can also deploy his full strength when the defender is not all on duty - which is why night in 'commando time', because half the defenders will be asleep.

 

A raider force with good tranport can keep many times its numbers scattered around on guard details.

[Detonable]

That would be sheep 'station'.  Oz doesn't have ranchs.

 

As for hitting transmission lines with any sort of regularity, the only consistent way to do this in WWII was dive bombers against undefended targets in day light, massive area attacks on concentrated areas, or by flying into them.

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Thanks for the correct terminology!

 

The Germans had great difficulty knocking down radar antennas in the Battle of Britain. Apparently bombs are not efficient at knocking down open structures such as transmission towers.

 

My dad (from Canada) said that teenagers thought that the glass insulators on telephone lines were great slingshot targets back before WWII.

 

Interesting that none of the air forces developed an effective attack against power generation during WWII.

[Chris Werb]

What makes raiders hard to counter is that the enemy can strike anytime and in a strength greater than the garrison. If there is no guard on the objective,  send a squad. If there is a squad, send a platoon, and so forth. The raider can also deploy his full strength when the defender is not all on duty - which is why night in 'commando time', because half the defenders will be asleep.

 

A raider force with good tranport can keep many times its numbers scattered around on guard details.

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I can see how landing next to the stations could perhaps have worked, but the idea of a German raiding force cruising round Kent or Essex attacking radar stations at will is a little far fetched IMO. OTOH we could have parachuted some people into France at night with Boys ATRs fitted with scopes.

[KingSargent]

I can see how landing next to the stations could perhaps have worked, but the idea of a German raiding force cruising round Kent or Essex attacking radar stations at will is a little far fetched IMO.  OTOH we could have parachuted some people into France at night with Boys ATRs fitted with scopes.

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I wasn't envisioning running around Kent, I was thinking of Storches landing some demolition engineers, blowing the tower pdq and taking off again.

 

All the pictures show the towers in the open with flat areas aound them, although that might just be the same pictures in all the books.

[swerve]

I wasn't envisioning running around Kent, I was thinking of Storches landing some demolition engineers, blowing the tower pdq and taking off again.

 

All the pictures show the towers in the open with flat areas aound them, although that might just be the same pictures in all the books.

 

A lot on clifftop sites, so landing a few raiders from a fast boat could be tricky. A few Storchs might do it - there's often flattish land at the top of the cliff, often sheep pasture - but they'd need daylight to see where they were landing, & a Storch over the Kent coast in daylight would be very vulnerable. Pick a day with low cloud, I'd say. Land 'em in the last light, they blow the tower & ground station, & run for it as it gets dark.

 

Or parachute (or glide) in at sunset, & abseil down in the dusk to be picked up by fast boats. Depends on the tide, though - and they'd have to be bloody fast.

 

One problem is that the light fades very slowly in the summer here. High latitudes - well, maybe not for you, but further north than all those lower 48 people.

[Christian Lupine]

On the History Channel the other night (not the best source, I know) they interviewed a German pilot who described attacking a few of the radar sites. He said they attacked a few, but they assumed that most of the site was underground and or/ hardened against attack, so they pretty much gave up after a few attempts.

[KingSargent]

A lot on clifftop sites, so landing a few raiders from a fast boat could be tricky. A few Storchs might do it - there's often flattish land at the top of the cliff, often sheep pasture - but they'd need daylight to see where they were landing, & a Storch over the Kent coast in daylight would be very vulnerable. Pick a day with low cloud, I'd say. Land 'em in the last light, they blow the tower & ground station, & run for it as it gets dark.

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A Storch at really low altitude shouldn't get on radar, especially if there are other things going on, like regular raids. After the first such op the RAF would be watching for it, which would be a good way to set up figter traps with Bf109s - try for the Storches and the 109s get you.

 

If you wanted to land by glider a good pickup would be seaplanes.

 

I was just considering if it would be possible to cut the tower bracing wires with a cable cutter like they used on barrage balloon cables.

[swerve]

If you wanted to land by glider a good pickup would be seaplanes.

 

Yes, in calm sea. Could get in and out quicker than boats.

 

I was just considering if it would be possible to cut the tower bracing wires with a cable cutter like they used on barrage balloon cables.

 

Bloody tricky. It wouldn't float away like a balloon.

 

Here are some pics. Scroll down the the second photo -

 

http://www.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/sites/s/stenigot/

 

The ones at Bawdsey could have been hit in a night raid, landing by boat. Flat, Suffolk. Scroll down, again.

 

http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/sites/b/bawdsey_radar/

 

Here's a picture of the Dover station taken from Cap Gris Nez -

http://www.dover.gov.uk/museum/focus/focus12.asp

 

The only Chain Home station to becompletely destroyed was Ventnor, on the Isle of Wight. 09 Aug 1940 it was attacked by 20 Ju88s, of which 15 got through the Spits. Dropped delayed-action bombs among the others. On August 16th, before it could be repaired, Ju87s destroyed all the buried buildings with 7 very accurately placed bombs. Luckily, what was intended to be a reserve station at Bembridge, nearby, was completed only a week later.

 

If they'd repeated that a few times, they could have wrecked the system, but they didn't realise how sucessful the raid had been. The reserve station coming on line may have helped to mislead them.

Edited December 9, 2005 by swerve

[Tony Williams]

If they'd repeated that a few times, they could have wrecked the system, but they didn't realise how sucessful the raid had been. The reserve station coming on line may have helped to mislead them.

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They did have mobile radar systems which they used to plug temporary gaps. They were pretty ineffective at detecting planes, but they apparently helped to convince the Germans that their attacks on the radar stations weren't worthwhile.

 

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

[John(txic)]

One book has recently been published on the subject: "The Other Few", by Larry Donnelly (sadly, no longer with us)

 

http://www.tahs.com/Red%20Kite%20Publications.htm

 

 

There is at least one other similar work, but I'm damned if I can remember it.

[Chris Werb]

I read a book by a chap who was involved with those mobile stations. Part of the problem with them was the need to build a massive 'artificial horizon' out of concentric circles of wire wherever this was set-up. This took time. However, I don't recall him saying that the mobile stations were poor at detecting aircraft.

 

Given that the Germans had already used glider borne commandos and paratroops, and that the CH stations were absolutely critical to the defence, I'd be surprised if the possibility of such attacks hadn't been addressed. Also radar wasn't the only means of detecting aircraft - there was also the Observer Corps. They were pretty much the only means of tracking low flying planes in the early war period (AFAIK CHL and CHEL weren't online in the summer of 1940).

[KingSargent]

Given that the Germans had already used glider borne commandos and paratroops, and that the CH stations were absolutely critical to the defence, I'd be surprised if the possibility of such attacks hadn't been addressed.

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AIUI, the Germans didn't understand just how critical it was.

[John(txic)]

AIUI, the Germans didn't understand just how critical it was.

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I dimly recall from reading (a long time ago) in that book by R V Jones "Most secret war"?? or Alfred Price's "Instruments of darkness" that the German sigint people sent the "Graf Zeppelin" on a ferreting mission up the East Coast and could not detect any radar signals of interest - because German radar (Seetakt, Wurzburg etc) worked on completely different frequencies, ISTR.

[swerve]

They did have mobile radar systems which they used to plug temporary gaps. They were pretty ineffective at detecting planes, but they apparently helped to convince the Germans that their attacks on the radar stations weren't worthwhile.

 

Tony Williams

 

That could be what caused the transmissions from near Ventnor which Martinis boys picked up, & which convinced him (wrongly) the attacks had failed.

[Lev]

I realize I'm late to the show, but I'd still like to make a few points about the Battle. The poor bird gets so much flak that I think it's worth pointing out that it wasn't all bad. for one thing it was actually fitted out for dive-bombing: the bombs were on hydraulic jacks that retracted into the wing, and could be lowered out of them to clear the wing in a dive. (But maybe the 'Bomber Barons' had all the jacks sabotaged to enforce strategic level-bombing behavior ).

The original specificantion (1k range, 1k bombs, 200mph) wasn't bad for 1933, and it (fortunatly) also exceeded specifications meaning that during development it was faster than all known fighters (except possibly the I-16). What was wrong was that the next wave of fighters was following a year behind the Battle.

Edited December 11, 2005 by Lev

[Chris Werb]

AIUI, the Germans didn't understand just how critical it was.

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I meant 'addressed by our side'