The Serbs Speak!

[JWB]

Maybe they should just fry the cell phone network?> http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/ebomb.html

[iceHawk]

Mmm... Nothing like quoting Venik for anything related to Serbia...

240368[/snapback]

and hes quoting the pentagon so whats your point?

[bigfngun]

http://www.aeronautics.ru/f117down.htm

http://www.aeronautics.ru/lbandradars.htm

240357[/snapback]

 

If I'm not mistaken these articles are 6 years old. Hardly the latest news off the wire.

[lucklucky]

That's probably what happened a Long Wave radar , a known airplane path, and a optical tracking. Neverthless the F-117 ESM should have detected the Command Guidance Link maybe that were was the trick or it was just that the pilot didnt have reaction time since probably the Launcher was in the path.

[FlyingCanOpener]

and hes quoting the pentagon so whats your point?

240541[/snapback]

 

Quoting a media report quoting a Pentagon official isn't good scholarship... or good common sense, which must be severely rationed in order to not vomit whilst reading Venik...

[Scott Cunningham]

Stealth isnt radar invisible, its reduced reflective to radar. If you fly an F-117 up an air corridor repeatedly, or have an un-cooperative ally tell the serbs where the flight corridor is you cand do this. Put the radar right in the right spot, set everything up, and just wait for the faint reflection off the 117.

[bigfngun]

Stealth isnt radar invisible, its reduced reflective to radar. If you fly an F-117 up an air corridor repeatedly, or have an un-cooperative ally tell the serbs where the flight corridor is you cand do this. Put the radar right in the right spot, set everything up, and just wait for the faint reflection off the 117.

240727[/snapback]

 

I might have missed something about the 1999 war with Serbia. Did one of our NATO "allies" sell us out?

[gewing]

Stealth isnt radar invisible, its reduced reflective to radar. If you fly an F-117 up an air corridor repeatedly, or have an un-cooperative ally tell the serbs where the flight corridor is you cand do this. Put the radar right in the right spot, set everything up, and just wait for the faint reflection off the 117.

240727[/snapback]

 

 

 

Did that French Officer ever serve time? Istr that he was convicted, but it was a LONG time ago.

[Jeff]

I might have missed something about the 1999 war with Serbia.  Did one of our NATO "allies" sell us out?

240750[/snapback]

 

A french officer was caught giving our mission plans to the Serbs.

[bigfngun]

A french officer was caught giving our mission plans to the Serbs.

240765[/snapback]

 

Last time I checked weren't the French also involved in the bombing. Does anyone know this kumbag's motivation?

[gewing]

Last time I checked weren't the French also involved in the bombing.  Does anyone know this kumbag's motivation?

240794[/snapback]

 

 

I don't remember anything ever coming out. Doesn't mean it didn't, but...

[nitin]

A french officer was caught giving our mission plans to the Serbs.

240765[/snapback]

 

IIRC, that proved to be an urban legend, after the media played it up first. It first appeared in the Serb press where they noted that Major Bunel a French officer gave the plans for financial gain. But then the US clarified the issue noting that it was untrue.

[elytorian]

Then it was the fault of poor mission design, luck on the serb side and the abundance of jamming aircraft. As noted, the AD Network wasnt so great, they did down 2 Aircraft and not even the search&rescue helicopter

[swerve]

Then it was the fault of poor mission design, luck on the serb side and the abundance of jamming aircraft. As noted, the AD Network wasnt so great, they did down 2 Aircraft and not even the search&rescue helicopter

 

Also, quite a few tactical UAVs. I think we & the Germans each lost several, for example.

[Sami Jumppanen]

Also, quite a few tactical UAVs. I think we & the Germans each lost several, for example.

240995[/snapback]

 

IIRC 45 was mentioned.

[Yama]

IIRC 45 was mentioned.

241001[/snapback]

 

Several were shot down by helicopters. Serbian IAD concentrated mostly on surviving - they didn't fire all that many missiles, around 500 overall.

Edited October 30, 2005 by Yama

[elytorian]

Also, quite a few tactical UAVs. I think we & the Germans each lost several, for example.

240995[/snapback]

Did anyone actually think that those drones would not be shot down? After all the low-flying, cheap drones were of course not low observable and missions would have been discontinued after the first losses if it would have mattered-

Chronology, i dont know how thrustworthy it is. http://www.aeronautics.ru/official/lostuavs.htm

[swerve]

IIRC 45 was mentioned.

241001[/snapback]

 

I've seen figures from 27 (of which 6 were in accidents) to 49.

[Scott Cunningham]

Drones are made to go in and get shot at. Thats why there are no humans on them. One goes down and you are out a mnodel plane. A pilot gets captured and you have an international incident. Just think if Gary Powers U-2 had been a drone.

[UN-Interested Observer]

Drones are made to go in and get shot at. Thats why there are no humans on them. One goes down and you are out a mnodel plane. A pilot gets captured and you have an international incident. Just think if Gary Powers U-2 had been a drone.

241149[/snapback]

 

Why, a weather-research aircraft with a malfunctioning navigation system would be in a tight spot without a pilot.

[swerve]

Drones are made to go in and get shot at. Thats why there are no humans on them. One goes down and you are out a mnodel plane. A pilot gets captured and you have an international incident. Just think if Gary Powers U-2 had been a drone.

241149[/snapback]

 

Was true, but nowadays there are also other reasons. For example, a Global Hawk is better for not having a pilot. With one, it would need to be bigger & correspondingly more expensive, & keeping a single pilot functioning efficiently for the length of time a Global Hawk can stay airborne would be tricky. But it's still not something you feel comfortable going in to get shot at, because it's bloody expensive.

[wallaby bob]

Listning to NATO comms is not that amazing really is it as a lot of stuff will be on low level uncrypted sets.  British have a traing DVD showing bad voice procedure allowing a group of the FWF (former waring faction) to set up an ambush on the patrol, and it is based on fact.

239538[/snapback]

 

COMMANDER.

 

The point about poor communications security is certainly valid if not exactly new.

In North Africa ca 1942 Erwin Rommel is quoted as having said he found it intolerable that " the German radio interception teams working on British signals provided more timely and accurate information on the location and activities of his own troops" than his official channels. Given that some exaggeration may have occurred it does reflect on the quality of British security at the time.

It should be remembered that any interception service can derive some intelligence from traffic flow and direction finding EVEN if(?) encryption is tatally effective. Not always a given. WB

Edited November 1, 2005 by wallaby bob

[Richard Young]

That's probably what happened a Long Wave radar , a known airplane path, and a optical tracking. Neverthless the F-117 ESM should have detected the Command Guidance Link maybe that were was the trick or it was just that the pilot didnt have reaction time since probably the Launcher was in the path.

240581[/snapback]

 

 

Speculation at the time is that the SAMs were fired "blind" on a ballistic path into the (projected? diviluged? repeated?) path of the Nighthawk, and the guidance link was only brought up at the last minute - thereby not granting enough time for the EW suite to work.

[seahawk]

What I heard is that a vintage early first generation longwave radar, that was abel to roughly track the F-117. Furthermore the F-117s were using the same route for some time now. Rumor says that the vintage radar was not detected by the RWR of the F117.

 

Anyway on the night of the shit down the Serbs placed an SA-3 (with optical seondary tracking mode) under the expected flightpath of the F117. The vintage radar was able to "track" the plane and give a fix good enough to concentrate the search power of the SA-3 in one small area. Which was enough to get a rough fix and launch 2 or 3 SA-3. A lock-on good not be achieved, but optical tracking was enough to bring a missile close enough, so that the blast damaged the F117, which lost control and crashed.

[Jeff]

IIRC, that proved to be an urban legend, after the media played it up first. It first appeared in the Serb press where they noted that Major Bunel a French officer gave the plans for financial gain. But then the US clarified the issue noting that it was untrue.

240823[/snapback]

 

BBC still has it available, Guardian too. Apparently he served time in prison for it as well. A bit more than an urban legend.

 

Monday, November 2, 1998 Published at 22:18 GMT

World: Europe

 

French officer 'spied for Serbs'

By Paris Correspondent Stephen Jessel

A senior French military officer has been arrested and detained in Paris on charges of spying for the Yugoslav Government.

 

Major Pierre Bunel is alleged to have handed over details of targets to be hit by Nato aircraft in the event that Serbia did not pull its troops out of the heavily-Albanian province of Kosovo.

 

Major Bunel, 46, was a member of the French delegation to Nato's military committee at the Alliance's headquarters in Brussels.

 

He was detained last week and questioned for four days before being formally placed under investigation on Saturday.

 

Reportedly no money changed hands

Reports quoting reliable sources say that he is suspected of handing over to Serb agents details of the military sites selected for Nato air attack.

 

In the end, the forces were withdrawn late last month and the prospect of a Nato strike has receded - at least for the time being.

 

The reports say that Major Bunel acted out of sympathy for the Serb cause and not for money.

 

If found guilty of spying for a foreign power, he could face up to 15 years in prison.

 

Earlier this year a French liaison officer in Bosnia was accused by an American newspaper of warning the Bosnian Serb leader, Radovan Karadzic, of Nato plans to arrest him.

 

The French authorities denied the charges but accepted that his relationship with Serb leaders developed in a way that was open to question, and the officer was recalled to France.

 

There is a pro-Serbia tradition in the French armed forces which is reported to have emerged on occasions during the conflict in Bosnia.

Former major denies treason

 

Jon Henley in Paris

Wednesday December 12, 2001

The Guardian

 

A former French army intelligence officer appeared before a military tribunal in Paris yesterday, accused of giving the Serb government secret details of planned Nato air strikes shortly before the Kosovo war.

Major Pierre-Henri Bunel, 49, has never denied that in four meetings with a Serb agent between July and October 1998, he handed over documents outlining possible Nato bombing targets.

 

But he rejects outright the charge of treason, and says he was acting on the instructions of a French intelligence agency to convince the then Yugoslav president, Slobodan Milosevic, that Nato meant business.

 

The prosecution says the documents Mr Bunel handed to Col onel Jovan Milanovic in the agent's Brussels apartment gave Belgrade "a clear picture" of Nato's objectives and were "liable to harm the fundamental interests" of France. Mr Bunel, who retired from the army in 1999, faces 15 years in prison if he is convicted.

"I am not a traitor," he said yesterday. "I was asked to tell a Serb intelligence officer that the only way for Milosevic to avoid massive bombardments was to pull out of Kosovo.

 

"The information I delivered was sensitive, but not top secret. There were no lists of targets, just general descriptions of the type and nature of potential bombing objectives."

 

Immediately after his arrest in 1998, Mr Bunel, who was head of staff to General Pierre Wiroth, a French military adviser to Nato, told investigators he had handed over the information "strictly for humanitarian reasons".

 

Army sources said he may have acted out of resentment at his lack of recognition by the military establishment: almost all the officers who graduated with him from the Saint Cyr military academy in 1975 have been promoted to colonel or higher.