Bad Books

[BillB]

Actually Bill, we get peeved at Hunter-Weston fighting to the last man, as long as it wasn't himself.

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Maybe, altho as I understand it Hunter-Weston was hamstrung by poor subordinate leaders and wasn't allowed to get rid because of Kitchener's insistence on maintaining peace-time seniority. Whichever, since Gallipoli became a totem for Australian nationalism the uninformed could be forgiven for running away with the idea that the only people there were Anzacs and British staff wallahs, which IIRC applies to the film and is what I was getting at. The Canadians lean the same way toward Vimy for the same reasons. Pierre Berton's "Vimy" is a clasic example.

 

There, that's insulted all the colonials in one go, so I'll close the hatch and prepare for outraged incoming.

 

all the best

 

BillB

[larrikin]

Maybe, altho as I understand it Hunter-Weston was hamstrung by poor subordinate leaders and wasn't allowed to get rid because of Kitchener's insistence on maintaining peace-time seniority. Whichever, since Gallipoli became a totem for Australian nationalism the uninformed could be forgiven for running away with the idea that the only people there were Anzacs and British staff wallahs, which IIRC applies to the film and is what I was getting at. The Canadians lean the same way toward Vimy for the same reasons. Pierre Berton's "Vimy" is a clasic example.

 

There, that's insulted all the colonials in one go, so I'll close the hatch and prepare for outraged incoming.  

 

all the best

 

BillB

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It was Hunter-Weston that insisted on repeating his suicidal charge orders at Krythia. They killed a lot of good British soldiers as well as Australians. I'n not talking about Hamilton here, but the divisional commander on shore. The only worse Brit senior officer, according to the diggers, was LtGen Haking, who got a lot of Australians and Canadians killed around Fromelles, and who Haig kept trying to promote, despite his near total incompetence.

[Unreal John]

Oh, I'm not suggesting that Ike might not have been giving her a portion. My beef was the way Whiting manages to work it in at every opportunity, and especially when it has absolutely notjhing to do with whatever he is supposed to be talking about.

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I gave up on Whiting before ever encountering any comment on Kay & Ike. His contempt for anyone who ever commanded a force larger than a RCT due to their inability to meet his standards of omniscience ground me down in about two books, back in the 70's.

[Doug Kibbey]

Platoon is set in 1967 and depicts the Army's 25th Infantry Div, Doug. I agree that some of the attitude stuff seems a bit post rather than pre-Tet 1968.

 

As a matter of interest given your experience, have you read John M. Del Vecchio's "The Thirteenth Valley", and if so what did you think of it? Apart from the Psychology 101 bit in the middle.

 

all the best

229453[/snapback]

 

Thanks, I was sketchy on my details of the film and prob'ly projecting some of Stone's Marine service onto it. I didn't find the film compelling....every conceivable VN cliche' compressed into 120 minutes or so.

 

Nope, didn't read the book you mention...generally don't read (what I assume that to be) first-person narratives or novels, just broader scope histories. The only exception I can think of is photog Don McCullins autobio, "Unreasonable Behavior".

 

edit: Ooops....and Orrin DeForrest's "Slow Burn", as that covers an area of esoteric interest not often addressed.

Edited October 1, 2005 by Doug Kibbey

[R011]

The problem I had with Platoon was not that it wasn't a very well made film, it was, but that every bad thing that had ever happened or was said to have happened in Vietnam, happened to this one platoon. That this served Mr. Stone's political agenda was doubtless no coincidence.

 

In most Commonwealth armies, the Company Sergeant Major oversees the senior NCO's, ensuring their professional competence, discipline, and deportment. Doesn't a US Army company First Sergeant do much the same thing and if so wouldn't he have had a grip on these people?

[Tony Williams]

I found 'Memphis Belle' mildly interesting, but not a patch on the documentary film it was based on. Watching that incoming 109 with the cannon fire flashing at the nose was something else - when you realised that it was really happening.

 

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

[Argus]

Full Metal Jacket

 

I loved it, still do for that matter. But then my view was formed in highschool where it was the cult classic with my group of mates, we wore out two copies on VHS, and no video night was compleate without a screening of FMJ. So when I see it now I'm not sure if the enjoyment isn't more nostalgia than Stanley Kubrick & Co.

 

Gallipoli

 

I HATE it, this might have something to do witrh seeing it 12 times at school, but I agree it's a load of Anglophobic BS. Hamilton and Hunter-Bunter aside, I have little time for historical films that make more of the 'enemy within' than the business to hand. Picking holes in your own side as a ballanced portrayal of history is fine, but not when its a divice to substitute controversy for a plot.

 

Harold Coyle is at his best when someone else defines the plot and leaves him to the details.

 

Dayle Brown should have stopped at the second book.

 

What about Bernard Cornwall?

 

shane

[TonyE]

Well, if you are right at the southern tip of VietNam, you can see the sunset over the ocean between there and Thailand, but I will agree that I cringed when I saw it.

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If we should believe what some of Sam say, the sun sets wherever the Duke wants it to.

[Corinthian]

Hey, Mad Max and Thunderdome are pretty real (we'll just have to wait for a nuke exchange for a definitive judgment)

 

#1 pitfall to avoid: don't add a romantic subplot.  These almost always suck in military oriented thrillers.

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DAMN RIGHT! Nothing spoils a military-oriented book with a romantic subplot - one reason why I stay away from Ludlum (almost always a single hero changing the whole world and there has got to be a woman involved). They could've left out the romance part in "The Great Raid" movie as well and the one-to-one fight with the Japanese POW camp commander.

 

Dale Brown: rubbish.

 

Anything directed by John Woo - he of the flying pigeons, twisting in the air while shooting, and nuclear hand grenades movie, 'Art of Action' my arse!: total rubbish (I heard he'll be making a movie on Rainbow Six. Gee. Great. )

[ShotMagnet]

Would have mentioned Clancy at the fore, except that I'd already vented considerable spleen in that direction already, in another forum.

 

What kills Ambrose for me are his more or less unsupportable conclusions, and the fact as otherwise noted that he had a staff do his reseach and didn't vet their results. People like Ambrose because of the writing style, which is easily digestible but in the main does no service to the history it purports to detail.

 

 

Shot

[BillB]

Whats the Tanknet verdict on 'Full Metal Jacket'? That was over the top in places, but I thought battle for Hue was quite well done, considering it was filmed in a London chemical factory. That guy who played the Sergeant is always worth watching.

229563[/snapback]

Dunno about the TN verdict but mine is that it was a load of wank. To be fair, the Parris Island stuff was not too bad, but it nosedived thereafter. IMO the fact it was filmed in a London chemical factory was part of the problem, along with the sloppy kit, lifting of large chunks of plot, dialogue and characterisation straight from Michael Herr's "Dispatches". I assume Kubrick decided he couldn't stretch that to a whole film and so decided to tack the training stuff on first as a time filler. Worst of all was the pure Hollywood-manual tactics. The big finale with the female VC "sniper" is risible. What is the point of lining out your squad to give cover and then sending folk forward to investigate the other side of a huge building beyond your field of fire? And doing it twice? Like I said, utter wank and an insult to the intelligence. So there!

 

all the best

 

BillB

[p620346]

"And using MGs that change from WW1 Bergmanns to Brownings from scene to scene...."

 

In SMASHING THE ATLANTIC WALL by Delaforce the guns of Battery HAMBURG at Cherbourg change back and forth between 240 and 280mm depending on whether British or US sources are being used.

[Hellfish6]

I loved FMJ, but then again, I saw it in high school too. Likewise, I love "Red Dawn" as well, since I remember staring out of the windows in my school hoping to God that the Russians would invade so I didn't have to take my math midterm.

 

Strange how opinions of youth still prevail over better judgement.

[Rickshaw]

I felt that FMJ as better than Platoon at catching the "flavour" of Vietnam. As someone mentioned, everything that could happen to a unit in Vietnam, happened in Platoon. FMJ was a typical military movie, followed the recruits through training into their first action. As a Kubrick movie, it wasn't a patch on Paths of Glory or Dr.Strangelove (his two other war movies) but it was better than most coming out at that time about Vietnam I felt.

 

The only scene I liked from Platoon was the night battle. I felt it was accurate - basically its just a series of muzzle flashes and small, intermitant scenes between various protaganists.

[BillB]

I felt that FMJ as better than Platoon at catching the "flavour" of Vietnam.  As someone mentioned, everything that could happen to a unit in Vietnam, happened in Platoon.  FMJ was a typical military movie, followed the recruits through training into their first action.  As a Kubrick movie, it wasn't a patch on Paths of Glory or Dr.Strangelove (his two other war movies) but it was better than most coming out at that time about Vietnam I felt.

 

I suppose it depends what you mean by "flavour", mate. IMO the flavour of FMJ was near cartoon, purely pop caricature, largely because of its roots in Herr's whimsical pieces for Rolling Stone magazine. So I agree it fitted in well with the contemporary peferences - anyone remember "Nam" magazine from the 1980s, ludicrously written almost entirely in what was supposed to be grunt-speak, complete with glossary? Unfortunately that preference was for a caricature that reflected popular opinion and prejudice rather than accurate depiction. Which is prolly why FMJ got feted for all its sloppy cartooniness while Hamburger Hill was slated.

 

[

The only scene I liked from Platoon was the night battle.  I felt it was accurate - basically its just a series of muzzle flashes and small, intermitant scenes between various protaganists.

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Agree on that and the night ambush, which I thought was one of the most suspenseful bits of film I have ever seen. As I've already said above.

 

all the best

 

BillB

 

Edited for crap formatting

[BillB]

I too liked the training sequences, I thought that the sergeant (R Lee Emery?) was hysterical. But I agree there were glaring problems in the equpment. I mean, ARVN using M41s would have been believeable, but I dont thing the US army (or indeed the USMC) were using them in Hue. So I dont disagree, but I think the exchanges between the unit 'Have you seen some action? Well I saw some on TV etc) made it worth watching. A better film than platoon, but not as good as Hamburger hill.

229766[/snapback]

Fair one. I think the witticisms and dialogue were spoiled for me because they are lifted verbatim and out of context from Herr's Dispatches, which is just downright lazy and especially for a so-called film icon like Kubrick. I suppose we'll have to disagree about FMJ's ranking, mate, as it resides firmly at the bottom of my list. Unless you're looking for a cartoon, pop-art depiction, of course.

 

all the best

 

BillB

[Geoff Winnington-Ball]

Since we're on the subject, there are two things I liked about FMJ and one I didn't. The First Positive was the Drill Sergeant's portrayal - masterful and hugely entertaining. The Second Positive was in what I perceived as an almost surreal visual atmosphere in the Hue battle. Rather more than the action itself (which needed work), methinks the visual impact was designed that way - to stun the average joe watching it. They did a pretty good job.

 

I was pissed off when at the end of the Training Segment the fat lad blew away the Drill Sergeant and then himself. I thought that unnecessarily melodramatic and irrelevant to the central story. But that's just me.

 

Platoon was powerful in its time, but even then an obvious political statement incorporating so many cliches as to make it the equivalent of a Sgt Rock comic book. To paraphrase BoB, "Oliver Stone doesn't hate YOU, dear ticket buyer, he hates the United States".

 

I own the movie because it was given to me one Christmas, but I've never watched it after I saw it in the theatre at its first release.

 

Hamburger Hill I thought was really good - theme, characterisations, and scripting/choreography. In my books, given when it was made, it's on a par with WWS.

[R011]

I thought FMJ was more than a bit over the top. I never really bought into it. WHile not as good a piece of film, I thought The Boy's in Company C told a similar story much better and more believably.

 

I rather liked the bit where the platoon commader asked one of the guys if he'd ever spent a million dollars, and proceded to call in tac air.

Edited October 2, 2005 by R011

[Bob B]

DAMN RIGHT!  Nothing spoils a military-oriented book with a romantic subplot - one reason why I stay away from Ludlum (almost always a single hero changing the whole world and there has got to be a woman involved).   They could've left out the romance part in "The Great Raid" movie as well and the one-to-one fight with the Japanese POW camp commander....

 

Margaret Utinsky was a real life character in The Great Raid. She was awarded the Medal of Freedom after the war.

 

In reality she was trying to find her husband who was a civilian engineer on Bataan. She actually did quite a few of the things in real life that she was portrayed doing in the movie, too bad Hollywood had to spice it up. The original events would have worked well enough, the ending would have been about the same. Her husband died in one of the camps.

 

To read about the real person go here:

 

http://www.medaloffreedom.com/MargaretUtinsky.htm

 

The Jap commander was a total SOB and I didn't mind seeing him get offed. It was more satisfying than a trial would have been.

 

I like the film and plan to get it when it comes out on DVD.

[Corinthian]

Margaret Utinsky was a real life character in The Great Raid.  She was awarded the Medal of Freedom after the war.

 

In reality she was trying to find her husband who was a civilian engineer on Bataan.  She actually did quite a few of the things in real life that she was portrayed doing in the movie, too bad Hollywood had to spice it up.  The original events would have worked well enough, the ending would have been about the same.  Her husband died in one of the camps.

 

To read about the real person go here:

 

http://www.medaloffreedom.com/MargaretUtinsky.htm

 

The Jap commander was a total SOB and I didn't mind seeing him get offed.  It was more satisfying than a trial would have been. 

 

I like the film and plan to get it when it comes out on DVD.

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I'm not saying that she didn't exist, just that the producers didn't need IMO to devote a lot of the film on the romance subplot. I read both books on which the movie was based and they could've done better without or with less of the romance IMO. But overall, it was a good movie (especially like the opening and closing segments of actual WW2 footage - very poignant).

[nitflegal]

Shoot, y'all are tearing up FMJ and Platoon? I have two words for you. . .

 

Pearl Harbor.

 

Matt

[R011]

Shoot, y'all are tearing up FMJ and Platoon?  I have two words for you. . .

 

Pearl Harbor.

 

Matt

229988[/snapback]

I though we were discussing war movies?

[Kurt L]

Since we were originally discussing bad books ...

Two of the best and worst books have the Paul Carrell/Paul Karl Schmidt's "Hitler Moves East" and "Scorched Earth" (I hope I have all that right, I'm working from memory.) The photos are great, but the text is pure Nazi propaganda.

[toysoldier]

all the warbooks i´ve read are soviet. i remember some of them: "Nobody´s born a soldier", "About the dead and the living", "Dawn is peaceful here", "A real man", "My beloved", but those were the good ones. the first two were a series about a handful of characters: 1st a guy that starts the war as lieutenent, gets wounded within a encirclement /the great first Kiev one/, is demoted and allmost executed, and restarts as a private and slowly goes up the chain again, ending up as colonel. 2 a physician lady, who gets send to the guerrillas, and gets awfully wounded and allmost dies /yeah, a luv subplot ensues/. 3 a general, allmost a victim of the 1937 purges /lost a lot of friends to that/, that gets into lotsa trouble for his decency and moral principles, contrasted among the stalinist watchdogs. not your typical soviet war book. the rest was fairly epic. but there was also crap, bad bad bad crap, like "The clandestine Party Commitee fights back" /i shit you not with the title/, "Days and nights", "The Blockade", "Soldiers don´t kneel", "Tanks go on delta formation", "We are soviet men"/again i shit you not/, "The red wine of victory", and allmost any book by Polevoi and Bondarev. /yet Polevoi wrote "A real man", based on real facts, about a fighter pilot, Maresiev, who lost both legs below the knees, yets managed to fly again fighting planes/.

[swerve]

Polevoi wrote "A real man", based on real facts, about a fighter pilot, Maresiev, who lost both legs below the knees, yets managed to fly again fighting planes/.

 

So Douglas Bader wasn't the only one!

Edited October 3, 2005 by swerve