Bad Books

[BillB]

I'm dating myself a bit here but there is a good Gibson war film.

 

Galipoli.

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Only because Gibbo had not yet attained God-like status to dominate matters, And if you subscribe to the Oz nationalist line of the evil/incompetent Brits fighting to the last Anzac. Personally I preferred "The Light Horsemen" (I think that was the title) and the old TV series Anzacs with Paul Hogan.

 

all the best

 

BillB

[swerve]

The most appallingly cringeworthy military themed book I've read was 'The ten thousand' by Harold Coyle.

 

The basic premise of the book is that a US Corps with no logistic support could fight its way from the Ukraine to a North German port against everything a revitalised 1990s Nazi Germany could throw at it.  They are aided by a sympathiser in the Luftwaffe who orders the circuit boards from ALL the Germans combat aircraft to be taken out and delivered to his workshop so he can smash them up with a hammer.  The Germans thoughtfully neglect to use any indirect fire artillery, or blow any bridges and leave at least a division's worth of diesel at each intact autobahn gas station.

 

This is a book Tom Clancy probably wishes he'd written.

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Wow. That sounds even worse than that film where Merrills Marauders win the war in Burma, with a little, but not really significant, aid from 14th Army & a few Chinese divisions.

[swerve]

But I will admit, Braveheart stank. I have a Scottish heritage, and frankly even I had a job reconciling what was obviously a pile of Anglophobe pap with what really occured.

 

You mean Wallace shagging a woman who was under 10 when he was executed, & hadn't yet met the man she was supposedly married to - or for that matter, ever left France - & getting her pregnant with a child born several years after his death ?

 

Or were you thinking of the more egregious historical inaccuracies.

Edited October 1, 2005 by swerve

[larrikin]

Only because Gibbo had not yet attained God-like status to dominate matters, And if you subscribe to the Oz nationalist line of the evil/incompetent Brits fighting to the last Anzac.     Personally I preferred "The Light Horsemen" (I think that was the title) and the old TV series Anzacs with Paul Hogan.

 

all the best

 

BillB

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Actually Bill, we get peeved at Hunter-Weston fighting to the last man, as long as it wasn't himself.

[Tony Williams]

Some years ago I wrote a review of the worst non-fiction military book I've ever encountered (by a wide margin), and it's here: http://www.j-aircraft.org/bkreview/dispreview.php?revnumb=19

 

Of course, the first sentence is no longer true . In fact, I must credit that book with one thing - it was so awful that it prompted me to start on a history of aircraft guns with Emmanuel Gustin, which grew somewhat out of hand to become the 'Flying Guns' trilogy.

 

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

[Doug Kibbey]

Ref Platoon, I did caveat Stone's moralising, altho I thought the film was supposed to reflect his experiences as an infantryman with the 25th Div? Ref the poor leadership and discipline, I think it depends on when and which units, but I've read stuff that suggests that the depiction was pretty typical in some units and even worse in others. Have a look at the performance of the Americal Division in Keith Nolan's "Death Valley", for example. Whichever, at risk of being contradicted by Doug Kibbey or any oither Vietnam veterans on the board, the the kit, background routine and attitudes were spot on for some of the participant accounts I've read, especially the treatment of guys fresh in country. all the best

BillB

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No contradiction from me...can't say. "Platoon" was a Marine thing, IIRC, and I thought set ~1965, though that seems early for some of the activities and attitudes ("WWS" was for sure set in '65, the gear on the ground for sure seemed correct). My experience was not at all like "Platoon", which was from the "search and destroy" days.

I had the distinct advantage of going later and being better trained, if not better motivated given prevailing attitudes.

 

Apart from the obvious fanstasy aspect, I thought "Apoc.Now" depicted some aspects very well. In particular, the love/hate aspect of crew life, the ages of the troops, and the Air Cavalry C.A. generally, given the limitations under which it was filmed.

[Rickshaw]

The only reason why Gallipoli is any good is because Gibson wasn't in control of it, he was merely an actor (and it has to be admitted not a terribly good one). I knew quite a few people who worked as extras on that movie - they drew heavily on the Army to provide them. They weren't impressed with dear Mel and his off-screen antics.

 

A good war movie, which hasn't been mentioned is "Breaker Morant". While the premise is a bit shaky, it was well acted and portrayed a great deal of the drama surrounding the Breaker's trial. Has some of the most memorable lines to come out of moviedom as far as the Commonwealth was concerned - "Rule 303" is one. Its a pity that better histiography has tended to demolish the premise of the movie, that Kitchener sacrificed Morant and Co. in order to gain a peace with the Boers.

 

There are simply too many examples of bad war movies but one which has always stuck in my mind is the ending of Green Berets, where The Duke and the young Vietnamese kid wander off, along the beach in Vietnam, into the sunset! Not only was it too corny for words, it was geographically impossible.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball]

I'm getting confused, but that's my decaying brain I reckon. We WERE talking about books, weren't we? In that vein, I concur with the previous appraisals of Ambrose, Brown, Bond and Clancy. I won't have them on my shelf! Ref movies, I DID like, and DO own, WWS. I thought the characterizations were really well done. Plus, if the REAL Hank Moore endorses it, it's good enough for me. Sam Elliot's portrayal of the Sarn't Major is classic, easily outshines Gibson. And who played Gibson's wife in that one? My god, she was beautiful, an angel come to claim me for my sins...

[Geoff Winnington-Ball]

Apart from the obvious fanstasy aspect, I thought "Apoc.Now" depicted some aspects very well. In particular, the love/hate aspect of crew life, the ages of the troops, and the Air Cavalry C.A. generally, given the limitations under which it was filmed.

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I know a guy up here who did a year with the 101st 68/69, Recon plt. He loved the air assault portion of Apoc. Now but could give or take the rest except on the "literary" level ('Heart of Darkness'). QUite an interesting chap, actually... I've never seen anyone move more quietly though the bush. He scared ME more than once, and that takes some doing...

[Doug Kibbey]

I know a guy up here who did a year with the 101st 68/69, Recon plt. He loved the air assault portion of Apoc. Now but could give or take the rest except on the "literary" level ('Heart of Darkness'). QUite an interesting chap, actually... I've never seen anyone move more quietly though the bush. He scared ME more than once, and that takes some doing...

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Recon Plt., Aerorifle Troop of 2/17th Cav, 101st here...I can relate.

[larrikin]

I know a guy up here who did a year with the 101st 68/69, Recon plt. He loved the air assault portion of Apoc. Now but could give or take the rest except on the "literary" level ('Heart of Darkness'). QUite an interesting chap, actually... I've never seen anyone move more quietly though the bush. He scared ME more than once, and that takes some doing...

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Scariest bloke I ever struck in the bush was my old TpSgt. He had the "sombody else's problem field" from hell. The bastard would be leaning against a tree as you went past, on his side, and reach out and tap you from behind. Scared you shitless. I once saw a young Lieutenant stand on him will looking for him. As the Lieut walked away Bob reached out and grabbed him by the ankle. Lieut soiled himself. The rest of us had trouble not pissing ourselves. 3 tours of Vietnam with the SAS would explain it.

[hammerlock]

One of my fav great war movies, is "thin Red Line" I thought the realizm and feel of the movie were great, althought it have that feeling of post nam in it. But that would be leave out in any movie these days.

 

Worst movies, 'big red one," "dirty dozen one and two" sure they were 60's cheese... but even then they were bad.

 

Now the movie I would love to see is a WW2 movie set in the pacific, staring a totally British cast playing americans. I can just see the US media all up in arms forhaving the British taking credit some US action.

Edited October 1, 2005 by hammerlock

[Geoff Winnington-Ball]

Recon Plt., Aerorifle Troop of 2/17th Cav, 101st here...I can relate.

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Both of you have GREAT BIG BRASS ONES. I salute you and the foolishness of youth (we couldn't have decent wars without you)...

 

Some of the older fellows here will remember my friend Dave Decker, dead now. A year in M-48s, then a consecutive year as an Aeroscout Gunner in the Cav (C/16 Air, the Outcasts). He has no idea HOW he lived through that second tour.

 

I miss him.

[KingSargent]

Yes, but you're an American, and presumably one not linked to the C47 crews employed in Normandy...  

 

all the best

 

BillB

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I don't like Ambrose either, I find him horribly inaccurate.

 

OTOH, as a friend who does like him points out, most of his inaccuracies were the inaccuracies that the dogfaces had in 1944-5, so they are "real" in the sense that that's what the soldiers were thinking. Whatever flips your switch, I guess...

 

I loved Michael Shaara's The Killer Angels about Gettysburg, even if there are a few disputed points among the ACW cognoscenti. But his son, Jeff Sharra, trying to follow in Daddy's footsteps, turns me off completely. The Killer Angels formula worked well covering one three-day incident, but fails miserably when it tries to cover two wars and a whole generation.

[MiloMorai]

I don't think I saw Martin Caiden mentioned yet.

[KingSargent]

Hinting that "Ike" was porking his WAC driver is a recurring favourite,

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Kay Summersby wasn't a WAC (WAAC in those days), she was British - just another example of bloody Colonials returning the shafting we got before we kissed Mother England goodbye...

 

There was one joke I recall. Kay is driving Ike and the car breaks down. Kay is trained on minor repair, so she's under the hood - excuse me, 'bonnet' - cussing at the engine. Ike finds a toolbox in the trunk - excuse me -'boot' - and comes up with a tool saying "Do you want a screwdriver?"

 

Kay says, "We might as well, I can't fix the bloody motor."

[Geoff Winnington-Ball]

I loved Michael Shaara's The Killer Angels about Gettysburg, even if there are a few disputed points among the ACW cognoscenti. But his son, Jeff Sharra, trying to follow in Daddy's footsteps, turns me off completely. The Killer Angels formula worked well covering one three-day incident, but fails miserably when it tries to cover two wars and a whole generation.

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Ever read Michael Shaara's THE HERALD? I found that a fascinating exercise in imagination, but for the life of me, can't remember where my copy went. It ain't here and that pisses me off.

[KingSargent]

The thing I really didn't like about WWS was that it was SO melodramatic... like everyone was oozing this shiny kind of patriotism. I dunno... maybe that's what it was like back then, but that melodramaticism coupled with that god-awful make-you-wanna-cringe montage of the photographer at the end really annoyed me.

 

I did like the CSM, though.

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The unit portrayed was an 'elite' trained airborne unit - all volunteers - and it was early in the war when all we knew about VietNam was from The Green Berets (the book, not the movie), so the 'shiny patriotism' was pretty accurate. I didn't get to VN (washed out on a medical), but I remember what we who wanted to be soldiers felt then.

 

You liked the CSM because Sam Elliot played him. He does a great job on crusty old soldiers (he played Buford in Gettysburg). Incidentally, the real Colonel and SGT MAJ that Gibson and Elliot portrayed were there as advisor/critics for the shooting, so I think it was as accurate as their memories - at least up until the bayonet charge at the end, that was over the top.

 

I liked the wives back at Benning(?), too, delivering the 'Bad News Note' telegrams. I remember at the time someone on another board posted indignantly , "In the book, the cab driver was drunk!" I just said, "Wouldn't you be?" I've delivered a few Bad News Notifications and if you are a totally untrained cab driver doing such a job I don't blame you for imbibing Liquid Courage.

[KingSargent]

Wow. That sounds even worse than that film where Merrills Marauders win the war in Burma, with a little, but not really significant, aid from 14th Army & a few Chinese divisions.

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And using MGs that change from WW1 Bergmanns to Brownings from scene to scene....

[KingSargent]

The most appallingly cringeworthy military themed book I've read was 'The ten thousand' by Harold Coyle.

 

The basic premise of the book is that a US Corps with no logistic support could fight its way from the Ukraine to a North German port against everything a revitalised 1990s Nazi Germany could throw at it.  They are aided by a sympathiser in the Luftwaffe who orders the circuit boards from ALL the Germans combat aircraft to be taken out and delivered to his workshop so he can smash them up with a hammer.  The Germans thoughtfully neglect to use any indirect fire artillery, or blow any bridges and leave at least a division's worth of diesel at each intact autobahn gas station.

 

This is a book Tom Clancy probably wishes he'd written.

229316[/snapback]

It's a modernised takeoff on Xenophon's writing about the Greek mercenary unit trapped in Persia(?) that marched across Asia Minor surrounded by enemies and got home on ships stolen in the Black Sea. Most of the incidents happened (at least according to Xenophon), but it didn't translate well into modern combat situations.

[KingSargent]

There are simply too many examples of bad war movies but one which has always stuck in my mind is the ending of Green Berets, where The Duke and the young Vietnamese kid wander off, along the beach in Vietnam, into the sunset!  Not only was it too corny for words, it was geographically impossible.

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Well, if you are right at the southern tip of VietNam, you can see the sunset over the ocean between there and Thailand, but I will agree that I cringed when I saw it.

[DwightPruitt]

Kay Summersby wasn't a WAC (WAAC in those days), she was British - just another example of bloody Colonials returning the shafting we got before we kissed Mother England goodbye...  

 

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CK, Summersby was commissioned as a 1LT, WAC in December '44. Ike's first request for a commission for her was denied by Marshall because of her British citizenhip earlier in the year. It was approved after a congressional request.

[BillB]

No contradiction from me...can't say. "Platoon" was a Marine thing, IIRC, and I thought set ~1965, though that seems early for some of the activities and attitudes ("WWS" was for sure set in '65, the gear on the ground for sure seemed correct). My experience was not at all like "Platoon", which was from the "search and destroy" days.

I had the distinct advantage of going later and being better trained, if not better motivated given prevailing attitudes.

 

Apart from the obvious fanstasy aspect, I thought "Apoc.Now" depicted some aspects very well. In particular, the love/hate aspect of crew life, the ages of the troops, and the Air Cavalry C.A. generally, given the limitations under which it was filmed.

229380[/snapback]

Platoon is set in 1967 and depicts the Army's 25th Infantry Div, Doug. I agree that some of the attitude stuff seems a bit post rather than pre-Tet 1968.

 

As a matter of interest given your experience, have you read John M. Del Vecchio's "The Thirteenth Valley", and if so what did you think of it? Apart from the Psychology 101 bit in the middle.

 

all the best

[BillB]

Kay Summersby wasn't a WAC (WAAC in those days), she was British - just another example of bloody Colonials returning the shafting we got before we kissed Mother England goodbye...  

 

There was one joke I recall. Kay is driving Ike and the car breaks down. Kay is trained on minor repair, so she's under the hood - excuse me, 'bonnet' - cussing at the engine. Ike finds a toolbox in the trunk - excuse me -'boot' - and comes up with a tool saying "Do you want a screwdriver?"

 

Kay says, "We might as well, I can't fix the bloody motor."

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Oh, I'm not suggesting that Ike might not have been giving her a portion. My beef was the way Whiting manages to work it in at every opportunity, and especially when it has absolutely notjhing to do with whatever he is supposed to be talking about.

 

all the best

 

Billb

[BillB]

And using MGs that change from WW1 Bergmanns to Brownings from scene to scene....    

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What, a man with your depth of knowledge of firearms and you've never heard of the MG1918 Morphing Bergmann-Browning....