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On the way

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  1. This is a great read. Detailed background history on why the Canadians bought the Leo 1. Quote from the article.... 113 modernized Leopards would likely cost $146 million, while 113 M60A1s would cost $94.1 million, and 113 Centurions only $58 million. The Chief of Land Operations at National Defence Headquarters (NDHQ) in Ottawa, Major-General G. G. Brown, recommended the Centurion upgrade because it was the cheapest, and that they should be modernized immediately before the tanks were totally worn out.2 http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vol16/no4/PDF/CMJ164Ep16.pdf
  2. Don't know about Australia, but Canada chose the FA-18 because of its twin engines. Its a safety issue given the vast territory the air force flies over.
  3. I am not sure about this, seems like something is missing here. did the CAF only get one quote for Centurion upgrades from Vickers and then decided it was too expensive? Maybe that was why no one bought it? What about getting a quote from the Israelis? The South Africans upgraded their Centurions on their own to Oilphant standard, and other countries went they own way to upgrade their Centurions. So, that's an indication that Vickers was priced too high. I am sure the Canadians could have done the same, or made arrangements with the Dutch or Swedes to do the upgrade? If the CAF had upgraded their Centurions to the Sho't standard, they should be having commonality with US M60 tanks in engine and transmission. That's got to be worth some savings in spares and maintenance, seeing as they are just neighbours. Otherwise, they are shipping everything over from Germany? Seems like there was a hidden agenda somewhere to get the Leo 1
  4. Hmmm, I don't think that a torsion bar system excludes a bottom escape hatch. We had both in the AMX-13 we operated.
  5. From what I understand, when Singapore bought its initial batch of Centurions from India in 1975, (i believe they were Mk7 with the 20 pounder gun and petrol engine), they were shipped directly from India to Israel to join the Centurion upgrade assembly line. And brought up to Sho't Kal standard. When the IDF started phasing out its Sho't, we bought a second batch in the mid 90s. Canada bought the Leo1 in 1977-78. They could have saved the money, and had their Centurion tanks modified to the Israeli Sho't Kal standard in the late 70s, and later modified to Gimel standard in the later 80s. The Israelis would have give the Canadians a good price I believe, just to spread out the fixed cost of the upgrade assembly line over more tanks. I think it was fool hardy for the CAF to buy the Leo1 in 1977-78, knowing what handheld RPGs and ATGW could have done to a tank. The Leo 1 would have been dog meat in a European war. The only effective answer to RPG/ATGW at that time was Blazer ERA. They could have shipped the Canadian Centurions to Israel and gotten back a superior tank to the Leo 1. It was hilarious to think they were almost immediately looking for armour upgrades for the Leo 1 after they bought them and ended up using IBD Diesenroth's Mexas applique armour. Which is no protection against RPGs. In terms of survivability, i believe a Centurion modified to the final Sho't Gimel standard would fare better then a Leo 1/C1. Even better then a C2, which I understand was never fitted for ERA. Not to mention other benefits like a common powerpack and transmission with our American neighbours and their M60/M48. So much easier servicing and spare parts. Regarding the recoilless rifle, yeah, maybe the proper weapon to buy from German was not the Leo1 but the Armbrust. Smacks of politics to me. No deals with the those dirty rotten Israelis who oppress Arabs, LOL. Something like that.
  6. Ah yes, the guns on the syrian tanks looked like a 105mm L7
  7. I have to agree with this. The IDF kept upgrading their Sho't up to Dalet standard in 1984, and they upgraded over 700 of their tanks. They must have run some kind of assembly line there for upgrades. The CAF should have done the same for their 275 odd Centurions. The final IDF version was pretty impressive with Blazer armour, FCS and laser range finder, applique armour, etc. The weakness of the Centurion was identified as RPGs and this was largely resolved with ERA. If cost was an issue, maybe they could have contracted with the ISraeli company (Rafael? or IMI?) and ship the canadian tanks there for the upgrades. New powerpack/transmission and with new 105mm ammo being developed, I think it would have been viable against the T-72. In the Singapore army, the Israeli modified and upgraded Centurions were in service for at least 5 years after the introduction of the PT-91 by Malaysia 2002. Our last batch of Centurions were IDF surplus bought in mid 90s. We bought the Leo 2 in A5 configuration in 2006 and I don't think it was that great an improvement over a final modified Centurion. Not from what we have seen with Turkish use of Leo2s in Syria. Only after the Singapore army modified the Leo 2 to A7 + did I think we had a markedly superior tank to the PT-91.
  8. I was confused by some of the background on a couple of the main characters. There are 2 crew members of the Centurion that were from Morocco, spoke French and lived in the Muslim Quarter (in I presume Jerusalem). I thought there would be no way the IDF would place Israeli Muslims in a tank. But apparently, they are Mizrahim. Another socio economic commentary on the Yom Kippur War.
  9. To get within the minimum arming distance of 5m, LOL. Just kidding.
  10. Ok, I see, that makes sense.
  11. In the scene from Episode one, when the comm geek ran outside to plead with his CO that 3 Syrian helos were on the way with commandoes, and the CO was arguing with him. A truck suddenly explodes in the background and we hear chopper noise. I presume that was and an ATGW fired by the helo. LOL.
  12. Thanks and that makes sense to me. However, it seems that a longer recoil length would mean a bigger turret to accommodate it? But most low recoil guns are mounted in smaller and lighter AFVs, mostly wheeled. How does that work? is that not a contradiction?
  13. Yeah, its very good. But not all about armor. Alot of it centres around close quarter fighting in the Mt Hermon complex. and also the social political unrest before the war. But the Centurion scenes were great.
  14. U don't say. In the first episode, there is a scene when Syrian commandoes penetrated all the way into the bowels of the Mt Hermon comms complex and were torturing and executing Israeli comms experts in their own control room. for one of the most top secret facilities in Israel to be penetrated this way is crazy.
  15. Is there any difference? Is the penetrative power of the larger 120mm gun offset by a lower recoil=lower muzzle velocity? If so, will a standard 105mm perform the same in terms of range, penetration, accuracy, etc? Is the recoil force similar for a low recoil 120mm and a standard 105mm?
  16. There are 3 episodes of Valley of Tears showing in canada now. Episode 1 - Pride before a Fall. Showing events leading up to the YK war, and from some personal perspective Episode 2 - The Heavens are Watching. Basically about the defence of Mt Hermon Episode 3 - Rock my Fortress. Interesting episode about the secret tunnels in Hermon, and how certain conscripts known as Geeks know these tunnels whereas frontliners combat soldiers don't. These Geeks man secret comms gear in there.
  17. IDF tank crews being crossed train, I would have had the tank commander be the driver, after such a bad blue on blue incident. Put the loader or gunner in to be TC and send the driver in to take up that position. This is a court martial offence after the war. better get him out of the TC hatch, bad for morale.
  18. Coming back to the thread...........i.e.Valley of Tears. Some minor inconsistencies. In one scene,The Centurion crew was down to one round, and they called it a HESH round. But it was actually a HEAT round. How common was HESH used in the IDF armor corp?
  19. The series is not painting the IDF tankers in a good light at all. There is a scene where a panicky Centurion tank commander opens fire on his own side. Mistook an IDF Half track for a BTR. Wipes out almost all the. occupants in the half track, a very bad blue on blue accident. I don't know any tank crew in the world that would still allow him to command the tank. But in the series, he is still in command and still making panicky decisions.
  20. That's weird. Why wouldn't they give the business to their own manufacturers like Taurus? Taurus makes 9mm too like the G3C
  21. I am not sure Stalin would have contemplated an attack on Germany before 1945, if that was ever his intend. He had a grandstand view of the German army in action in western Europe, defeating the BEF, the French, Poles, Dutch, etc. And in impressive and rapid fashion. Using superior trained troops, with innovative equipment and tactics. His General staff must have shitted in their pants when they saw how quickly the Germans defeated all before them. Given the recent officer purge, still obsolescent equipment in tanks and planes, and the overall poor training and equipment of the Russian soldier, there is no way they would have even considered attacking Germany. Not until they have totally revamped their army. Which would take many years.
  22. If I recall, the Leclercs are 3 man crews, which would address some of the manpower issues u mentioned.
  23. Oh really, not sure about that. I as told when I was in the School of Armour that the Israeli's biggest issue with extricating their crew (dead or alive) from a tank was to carry that dead weight out of the turret. If I recall, the procedure for an incapacitated crew was for 2 people to extricate him. One from inside the tank to grab his legs and push him upwards, while at the same time, another person from outside the tank reached in and unzipped the flap and pull him up using handle build into the overall. Some of my instructors were trained by the IDF in Israel.
  24. Yes, our army has a close relationship with the IDF. Most of the tank gear, eg helmet, uniforms, etc were the same as what the IDF used.
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